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Sep 29 2022 03:25am
Quote (Palasan @ Sep 29 2022 11:19am)
We will see


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Sep 29 2022 03:32am
So in the real world, its obvious Russia blew up the pipes Germany has invested a lot into building. Most probable versions point out that Putin gave the order to blow them up to prevent some type of a coup.
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Sep 29 2022 03:40am
Quote (Palasan @ Sep 29 2022 11:32am)
So in the real world, its obvious Russia blew up the pipes Germany has invested a lot into building. Most probable versions point out that Putin gave the order to blow them up to prevent some type of a coup.


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Sep 29 2022 03:41am
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Sep 29 2022 04:12am
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Sep 29 2022 04:30am
In the news:

"Russia's Vladimir Putin will hold a signing ceremony on Friday formally annexing four more areas of Ukraine after self-styled referendums condemned by Ukraine and the West as a sham. Russian-backed officials had earlier claimed the five-day exercise secured almost total popular support. So-called votes were held in Luhansk and Donetsk in the east, and in Zaporizhzhia and Kherson in the south. The Russian president will make a major speech at the Kremlin. This breaking news story is being updated and more details will be published shortly. Please refresh the page for the fullest version."

This would appear to confirm the comments made earlier in the week whereby Putin was seeking to create a landbridge all the way to Crimea (from a tactical/logistical standpoint this seems sound, when viewed from the Russian side?). Obviously the Ukrainians will be driven apocalyptic by this noting its a bit further from what had been negotiated earlier in the year and their country is literally being carved up.

Is it true that America vetoed the previous negotiations ? will try to get more information re: same, not sure what i will find.

This post was edited by ferdia on Sep 29 2022 04:43am
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Sep 29 2022 05:09am
double post.

I bolded what stood out for me, but I see there are certain events missing from this. will try to find alternate sources relating to various items around the peace talks.

anyway, this is what wiki says:

Background

On 24 February 2022, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced a "special military operation" in eastern Ukraine.[8] Soon after, Russian forces crossed into the Ukrainian border and began to fight against Ukrainian troops.[9] During a conversation between Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Belarusian president Alexander Lukashenko on 27 February, it was agreed that a Ukrainian delegation would meet with Russia on the Belarusian border, near the Pripyat River, without preconditions.[10] It was reported that Lukashenko assured Zelenskyy that all planes, helicopters, and missiles on Belarusian territory would remain on the ground during the negotiations.[11] By 16 March, Mykhailo Podoliak was assigned as the chief negotiator for the Ukrainian peace delegation, who indicated that peace negotiations of a 15-point plan would involve the retraction of Russian forces from their advanced positions in Ukraine, along with international guarantees for military support and alliance in case of renewed Russian military action, in return for Ukraine not pursuing further affiliation with NATO.[12]

Negotiations
Peace talks: First phase of invasion (24 February to 7 April)
First round (28 February)

The first round of talks began on 28 February, near the Belarusian border. The Ukrainian president's office said that the main goals were to call for an immediate ceasefire, and for Russian troops to be withdrawn from Ukraine.[13] It concluded with no immediate agreements.[14]

Second round (3 March)

On 3 March, the second round of peace talks began. Both sides agreed to open humanitarian corridors for evacuating civilians.[15] Russia's demands were Ukraine's recognition of Russian-occupied Crimea, independence for separatist-controlled Luhansk and Donetsk, and "de-militarisation" and "de-Nazification". Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba stated that while his country was ready for talks to resume, Russia's demands had not changed.[16][17] It was reported on 28 March that three members of the Ukrainian negotiating team, including Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian politician Rustem Umerov, were suffering from suspected poisoning.[18] According to the independent newspaper Meduza, prior to the alleged poisoning, Umerov was accused by the Kremlin and Russian state-controlled media of being an American spy, and that he was deliberately prolonging the negotiations to Ukraine's advantage.[19] Umerov later wrote on Facebook that he was "fine", calling for people to not trust "unverified information".[20][21][22]
Third round (7 March)

A third round of negotiations began on 7 March, amidst ongoing fighting and bombing.[23] Although a deal had not been reached yet, Ukrainian negotiator and advisor to the president Mykhailo Podoliak tweeted that "there were some small positive shifts regarding logistics of humanitarian corridors."[3][24] However, the day before, a Ukrainian negotiator was shot amid claims of spying for Russia.[25] Antalya Diplomacy Forum (10 March) On 10 March, Russian foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and his Ukrainian counterpart Dmytro Kuleba met for talks in Antalya, Turkey with Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu as mediator, in the first high-level contact between the two sides since the beginning of the invasion.[5] Ukraine had attempted to negotiate a 24-hour ceasefire to provide aid and evacuation to civilians, especially in Mariupol.[26] After two hours of talks, no agreement was reached.[27] Airstrikes on the port city continued.[28]
Fourth round (14–17 March) In the first government delegation to Ukraine since the beginning of the invasion, the prime ministers of Poland, the Czech Republic, and Slovenia met with Zelenskyy in Kyiv on 15 March 2022.[29]

The fourth round of negotiations began on 14 March via video conference. The talks lasted a few hours and ended without a breakthrough. The two sides resumed talks on 15 March,[6] after which Volodymyr Zelenskyy described the talks as beginning to "sound more realistic".[30] The two sides again resumed talks on 16 March.[30] Later that day, the Financial Times reported that a 15-point plan, first discussed on 14 March, negotiated with the Russians was being identified by Zelenskyy as more realistic for ending the war.[31][32] After the fourth day of talks on 17 March, Russia said an agreement has not been reached.[33] Following the talks, French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian warned that Russia was only "pretending to negotiate", in line with a strategy it has used elsewhere.[34] On 20 March, Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, the mediator of the talks, described them as "making progress". Referring to his role as "an honest mediator and facilitator", he gave little further detail.[35] Following his address to the Israeli parliament, Zelenskyy said that Israel was also trying to encourage peace talks.[36]

Fifth round (21 March)

The fifth round of talks, on 21 March, failed to achieve a breakthrough. Zelenskyy called for direct talks with Putin to end the war.[37] Sergey Lavrov said direct talks between the two presidents would only go ahead once both sides are closer to reaching a settlement.[38]

Renewal of peace talks: 29–30 March

On 28 March, Zelenskyy confirmed that a renewal of peace talk negotiations with Russia would start in Istanbul on 29 March, with the intention of discussing Ukrainian neutrality, along with the repudiation of any claims for Ukrainian NATO membership in the future.[39] On 29 March, Estonian Prime Minister, Kaja Kallas, indicated in agreement with French minister Le Drian that any Russian offers of peaceful negotiation about Ukraine, or withdrawal from Kyiv, should be regarded with diplomatic skepticism, based on a history of Russian unreliability in similar peace negotiations with other countries.[40][34] Peace talks: Second phase of invasion (7 April to present)

Parts of this article (those related to The April 2022 section and follow-on material) need to be updated. Please help update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. (May 2022)
April 2022

According to a May report from Ukrainska Pravda, the Russian side was ready for a Zelensky-Putin meeting, but it later came to a halt after the discovery of Russian war crimes in Ukraine, and the surprise visit on April 9th of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson who told Zelensky "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with," and that "even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not." Three days after Johnson left Kyiv, Putin stated publicly that talks with Ukraine "had turned into a dead end".

Another three days later, Roman Abramovich visited Kyiv in an attempt to resume negotiations, but was rebuffed by Zelensky as a non-neutral party.[41] According to Fiona Hill and Angela Stent writing in Foreign Affairs in September, U.S. officials they spoke with said Russia and Ukraine "appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement", whereby the Russian forces would withdraw to the pre-invasion line and Ukraine would commit not to seek to join NATO in exchange security guarantees from a number of countries. However, in a July interview with Russian state media, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated that this compromise was no longer an option, saying that even the Donbas was not enough and that the "geography had changed."[42]

On 7 April 2022, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that the peace deal Ukraine drafted and presented to the Russian government contained "unacceptable" elements. Lavrov said that the proposal diverged from the terms negotiators had agreed on. Mykhaylo Podolyak, a negotiator for Ukraine, said that the comments from Lavrov are a tactic to draw attention away from the war crime accusations against Russian forces. Lastly, Lavrov stated, "Despite all the provocations, the Russian delegation will continue with the negotiation process, pressing for our own draft agreement that clearly and fully outlines our initial and key positions and requirements."[43]

On 11 April, the Chancellor of Austria, Karl Nehammer, visited and spoke with Putin in Moscow in 'very direct, open and hard' talks which were skeptical of the short-term peaceful resolution of the invasion.[44] By 26 April, the Secretary General of the United Nations Antonio Guterres visited Russia for the purpose of speaking with Putin and Lavrov in separate meetings, and after the meetings with them indicating skepticism as to any short term resolution of differences between Russia and Ukraine largely due to very different respective perspectives on the circumstances of the invasion presently being adopted by each of the two nations.[45]

In September Reuters reported that Dmitry Kozak had an agreement with the Ukrainian side with Ukraine's declaration that it will not join NATO, which was presented as the key Russia's concern. The agreement was however blocked by Vladimir Putin who "expanded his objectives to include annexing swathes of Ukrainian territory".[46][47]
May 2022

At the start of May, Lavrov stated that his belief (prefaced by stating that he "could be wrong") that Hitler was part Jewish; the claim was met with outrage from Israel's government officials.[48] On 5 May, Putin retracted and apologized to Israel's prime minister for Lavrov's comment, who accepted the apology during discussions with Putin about Ukraine.[49] Peace talks and stability of international borders were further discussed in the Ukrainian parliament during the week of 9 May.[citation needed] In the same week both Sweden and Finland applied to become full members of NATO.[50]

Peace talks and stability of international borders were further discussed in parliament during the week of 9 May within both Sweden and Finland for application to become full members of NATO.[7] On 13 May, U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin initiated a telephone conversation with Russian Minister of Defense Sergei Shoigu, the first call since 18 February, before the invasion. The call lasted about an hour with Austin urging an immediate ceasefire.[51][52]

On 15 May, Putin convened the Collective Security Treaty Organization, consisting of Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Armenia, Tajikistan, and Belarus, to discuss issues of peace and border security related to Ukraine and NATO.[53] In response to perceived instability of Russia's border with Finland following the application of Finland and Sweden for NATO membership, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu announced that Russia would deploy and station 12 divisions of troops on Russia's border with Finland.[54] On 22 May, while visiting in Japan to discuss cooperative efforts between Japan and the US to assist peaceful resolutions to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Biden stated that current US treaties with Taiwan would see the US providing direct military support to Taiwan in the event of diplomatic or military pressure exerted by China, in contrast to the limits of its financial support of Ukraine resisting Russian military operations.[55]

Zelenskyy denounced suggestions by former US diplomat Henry Kissinger that Ukraine should cede control of Crimea and Donbas to Russia in exchange for peace.[56] On 25 May, Zelenskyy said that Ukraine would not agree to peace until Russia agreed to return Crimea and the Donbas region to Ukraine.[57] Zelensky stressed that "Ukrainians are not ready to give away their land, to accept that these territories belong to Russia." He emphasized that Ukrainians own the land of Ukraine.[58] As of September 2022, these peace negotiations have been frozen indefinitely.

This post was edited by ferdia on Sep 29 2022 05:12am
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Sep 29 2022 05:18am
Well that makes sense considering that Russian soldiers massacred civilians, raped kids and looted everything they could.
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Sep 29 2022 05:20am
Quote (ferdia @ Sep 29 2022 07:09am)
double post.

I bolded what stood out for me, but I see there are certain events missing from this. will try to find alternate sources relating to various items around the peace talks.

anyway, this is what wiki says:

Background

On 24 February 2022, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced a "special military operation" in eastern Ukraine.[8] Soon after, Russian forces crossed into the Ukrainian border and began to fight against Ukrainian troops.[9] During a conversation between Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy and Belarusian president Alexander Lukashenko on 27 February, it was agreed that a Ukrainian delegation would meet with Russia on the Belarusian border, near the Pripyat River, without preconditions.[10] It was reported that Lukashenko assured Zelenskyy that all planes, helicopters, and missiles on Belarusian territory would remain on the ground during the negotiations.[11] By 16 March, Mykhailo Podoliak was assigned as the chief negotiator for the Ukrainian peace delegation, who indicated that peace negotiations of a 15-point plan would involve the retraction of Russian forces from their advanced positions in Ukraine, along with international guarantees for military support and alliance in case of renewed Russian military action, in return for Ukraine not pursuing further affiliation with NATO.[12]

Negotiations
Peace talks: First phase of invasion (24 February to 7 April)
First round (28 February)

The first round of talks began on 28 February, near the Belarusian border. The Ukrainian president's office said that the main goals were to call for an immediate ceasefire, and for Russian troops to be withdrawn from Ukraine.[13] It concluded with no immediate agreements.[14]

Second round (3 March)

On 3 March, the second round of peace talks began. Both sides agreed to open humanitarian corridors for evacuating civilians.[15] Russia's demands were Ukraine's recognition of Russian-occupied Crimea, independence for separatist-controlled Luhansk and Donetsk, and "de-militarisation" and "de-Nazification". Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba stated that while his country was ready for talks to resume, Russia's demands had not changed.[16][17] It was reported on 28 March that three members of the Ukrainian negotiating team, including Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich and Ukrainian politician Rustem Umerov, were suffering from suspected poisoning.[18] According to the independent newspaper Meduza, prior to the alleged poisoning, Umerov was accused by the Kremlin and Russian state-controlled media of being an American spy, and that he was deliberately prolonging the negotiations to Ukraine's advantage.[19] Umerov later wrote on Facebook that he was "fine", calling for people to not trust "unverified information".[20][21][22]
Third round (7 March)

A third round of negotiations began on 7 March, amidst ongoing fighting and bombing.[23] Although a deal had not been reached yet, Ukrainian negotiator and advisor to the president Mykhailo Podoliak tweeted that "there were some small positive shifts regarding logistics of humanitarian corridors."[3][24] However, the day before, a Ukrainian negotiator was shot amid claims of spying for Russia.[25] Antalya Diplomacy Forum (10 March) On 10 March, Russian foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and his Ukrainian counterpart Dmytro Kuleba met for talks in Antalya, Turkey with Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu as mediator, in the first high-level contact between the two sides since the beginning of the invasion.[5] Ukraine had attempted to negotiate a 24-hour ceasefire to provide aid and evacuation to civilians, especially in Mariupol.[26] After two hours of talks, no agreement was reached.[27] Airstrikes on the port city continued.[28]
Fourth round (14–17 March) In the first government delegation to Ukraine since the beginning of the invasion, the prime ministers of Poland, the Czech Republic, and Slovenia met with Zelenskyy in Kyiv on 15 March 2022.[29]

The fourth round of negotiations began on 14 March via video conference. The talks lasted a few hours and ended without a breakthrough. The two sides resumed talks on 15 March,[6] after which Volodymyr Zelenskyy described the talks as beginning to "sound more realistic".[30] The two sides again resumed talks on 16 March.[30] Later that day, the Financial Times reported that a 15-point plan, first discussed on 14 March, negotiated with the Russians was being identified by Zelenskyy as more realistic for ending the war.[31][32] After the fourth day of talks on 17 March, Russia said an agreement has not been reached.[33] Following the talks, French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian warned that Russia was only "pretending to negotiate", in line with a strategy it has used elsewhere.[34] On 20 March, Turkey's Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu, the mediator of the talks, described them as "making progress". Referring to his role as "an honest mediator and facilitator", he gave little further detail.[35] Following his address to the Israeli parliament, Zelenskyy said that Israel was also trying to encourage peace talks.[36]

Fifth round (21 March)

The fifth round of talks, on 21 March, failed to achieve a breakthrough. Zelenskyy called for direct talks with Putin to end the war.[37] Sergey Lavrov said direct talks between the two presidents would only go ahead once both sides are closer to reaching a settlement.[38]

Renewal of peace talks: 29–30 March

On 28 March, Zelenskyy confirmed that a renewal of peace talk negotiations with Russia would start in Istanbul on 29 March, with the intention of discussing Ukrainian neutrality, along with the repudiation of any claims for Ukrainian NATO membership in the future.[39] On 29 March, Estonian Prime Minister, Kaja Kallas, indicated in agreement with French minister Le Drian that any Russian offers of peaceful negotiation about Ukraine, or withdrawal from Kyiv, should be regarded with diplomatic skepticism, based on a history of Russian unreliability in similar peace negotiations with other countries.[40][34] Peace talks: Second phase of invasion (7 April to present)

Parts of this article (those related to The April 2022 section and follow-on material) need to be updated. Please help update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. (May 2022)
April 2022

According to a May report from Ukrainska Pravda, the Russian side was ready for a Zelensky-Putin meeting, but it later came to a halt after the discovery of Russian war crimes in Ukraine, and the surprise visit on April 9th of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson who told Zelensky "Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with," and that "even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not." Three days after Johnson left Kyiv, Putin stated publicly that talks with Ukraine "had turned into a dead end".

Another three days later, Roman Abramovich visited Kyiv in an attempt to resume negotiations, but was rebuffed by Zelensky as a non-neutral party.[41] According to Fiona Hill and Angela Stent writing in Foreign Affairs in September, U.S. officials they spoke with said Russia and Ukraine "appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement", whereby the Russian forces would withdraw to the pre-invasion line and Ukraine would commit not to seek to join NATO in exchange security guarantees from a number of countries. However, in a July interview with Russian state media, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov stated that this compromise was no longer an option, saying that even the Donbas was not enough and that the "geography had changed."[42]

On 7 April 2022, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that the peace deal Ukraine drafted and presented to the Russian government contained "unacceptable" elements. Lavrov said that the proposal diverged from the terms negotiators had agreed on. Mykhaylo Podolyak, a negotiator for Ukraine, said that the comments from Lavrov are a tactic to draw attention away from the war crime accusations against Russian forces. Lastly, Lavrov stated, "Despite all the provocations, the Russian delegation will continue with the negotiation process, pressing for our own draft agreement that clearly and fully outlines our initial and key positions and requirements."[43]

On 11 April, the Chancellor of Austria, Karl Nehammer, visited and spoke with Putin in Moscow in 'very direct, open and hard' talks which were skeptical of the short-term peaceful resolution of the invasion.[44] By 26 April, the Secretary General of the United Nations Antonio Guterres visited Russia for the purpose of speaking with Putin and Lavrov in separate meetings, and after the meetings with them indicating skepticism as to any short term resolution of differences between Russia and Ukraine largely due to very different respective perspectives on the circumstances of the invasion presently being adopted by each of the two nations.[45]

In September Reuters reported that Dmitry Kozak had an agreement with the Ukrainian side with Ukraine's declaration that it will not join NATO, which was presented as the key Russia's concern. The agreement was however blocked by Vladimir Putin who "expanded his objectives to include annexing swathes of Ukrainian territory".[46][47]
May 2022

At the start of May, Lavrov stated that his belief (prefaced by stating that he "could be wrong") that Hitler was part Jewish; the claim was met with outrage from Israel's government officials.[48] On 5 May, Putin retracted and apologized to Israel's prime minister for Lavrov's comment, who accepted the apology during discussions with Putin about Ukraine.[49] Peace talks and stability of international borders were further discussed in the Ukrainian parliament during the week of 9 May.[citation needed] In the same week both Sweden and Finland applied to become full members of NATO.[50]

Peace talks and stability of international borders were further discussed in parliament during the week of 9 May within both Sweden and Finland for application to become full members of NATO.[7] On 13 May, U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin initiated a telephone conversation with Russian Minister of Defense Sergei Shoigu, the first call since 18 February, before the invasion. The call lasted about an hour with Austin urging an immediate ceasefire.[51][52]

On 15 May, Putin convened the Collective Security Treaty Organization, consisting of Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Armenia, Tajikistan, and Belarus, to discuss issues of peace and border security related to Ukraine and NATO.[53] In response to perceived instability of Russia's border with Finland following the application of Finland and Sweden for NATO membership, Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu announced that Russia would deploy and station 12 divisions of troops on Russia's border with Finland.[54] On 22 May, while visiting in Japan to discuss cooperative efforts between Japan and the US to assist peaceful resolutions to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Biden stated that current US treaties with Taiwan would see the US providing direct military support to Taiwan in the event of diplomatic or military pressure exerted by China, in contrast to the limits of its financial support of Ukraine resisting Russian military operations.[55]

Zelenskyy denounced suggestions by former US diplomat Henry Kissinger that Ukraine should cede control of Crimea and Donbas to Russia in exchange for peace.[56] On 25 May, Zelenskyy said that Ukraine would not agree to peace until Russia agreed to return Crimea and the Donbas region to Ukraine.[57] Zelensky stressed that "Ukrainians are not ready to give away their land, to accept that these territories belong to Russia." He emphasized that Ukrainians own the land of Ukraine.[58] As of September 2022, these peace negotiations have been frozen indefinitely.


Neither Putin nor Zelensky have their own people's interest in mind. Putin is an imperialist while Zelensky is a puppet who will send waves and waves of Ukrainians to die because forces from outside Ukraine want him too. Sad state of affairs tbh.
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Sep 29 2022 05:24am
Quote (ofthevoid @ Sep 29 2022 02:20pm)
Neither Putin nor Zelensky have their own people's interest in mind. Putin is an imperialist while Zelensky is a puppet who will send waves and waves of Ukrainians to die because forces from outside Ukraine want him too. Sad state of affairs tbh.


Because every time a tyrant invades you, giving him everything he wants without a fight is holding peoples interest in mind.
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