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Sep 22 2022 09:23am
Quote (bogie160 @ Sep 22 2022 06:22pm)
I don't think Russia will forgo the land bridge to Crimea at this point in time. Ukraine will not accept any loss of territory. It's obvious that no compromise can be had unless the conditions change.


1+

In the istanbul accord im 99% sure land bridge was gonna be a demilitarized zone, neither in russian or ukr hands. But now, there is 0% chance Russia gives it back to ukr.

This post was edited by ownyaah on Sep 22 2022 09:23am
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Sep 22 2022 09:24am
Quote (bogie160 @ Sep 22 2022 04:22pm)
I don't think Russia will forgo the land bridge to Crimea at this point in time. Ukraine will not accept any loss of territory. It's obvious that no compromise can be had unless the conditions change.


exactly.
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Sep 22 2022 09:25am
Quote (Santara @ Sep 22 2022 05:13am)
Russia's is ridiculously dishonest. I don't expect them to be honest however, they're fighting a war. But anyone who takes their numbers at face value deserve to be lied to.


Quote (chopstickz777 @ Sep 22 2022 09:44am)
Russia gave their casualties. It's around 6 thousand, with more than half of those sustained during the first two months due to the heavy offensive operations. Things have slowed down since then.


It's like clockwork.
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Sep 22 2022 09:26am
Quote (ferdia @ Sep 22 2022 06:20pm)
your proposition is flawed on the basis both parties would not be totally ok with it afterwards. Also, you constantly use the expression bothsidesisms when in fact it is logical to view a position from all its sides. the term bothsidesisms does not belong in this thread or the PARD subforums. it is a crutch used to ignore real failings in people's arguments/positions.

However, unlike most people here I have no issue stating my view and accepting the stares.

A peace treaty (notice i did not use the word "fair") would be similar to what ownyaah had stated above. if it helps i will say it again:

1. Donetsk/luhansk become autonomous
2. Ukraine writes neutrality into its constitution

/edit, seeing the above

3. crimea remains as-is.
4. no reparations.


LOL so we have to pay for destruction Russia caused in Ukraine? No thanks, Id rather have my tax money sent in a form of artillery and weapons until Putin dies and then Russia folds as a country altogether. As I said prior Ukraine is the best investment West made since South Korea.

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Sep 22 2022 09:28am
Quote (Palasan @ Sep 22 2022 04:26pm)
LOL so we have to pay for destruction Russia caused in Ukraine? No thanks, Id rather have my tax money sent in a form of artillery and weapons until Putin dies and then Russia folds as a country altogether. As I said prior Ukraine is the best investment West made since South Korea.


Russia would never countenance accepting blame for what it has done and is doing in Ukraine, ergo Russia will never pay reparations. trust this clarifies the point. This goes back to the root issue: BOTH SIDES think they are in the right. Therefore its impossible for a settlement to occur.

This post was edited by ferdia on Sep 22 2022 09:32am
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Sep 22 2022 09:33am
Quote (ferdia @ Sep 22 2022 06:28pm)
Russia would never countenance accepting blame for what it has done and is doing in Ukraine, ergo Russia will never pay reparations. trust this clarifies the point.


LOL there is like 60,000 dead Russians in Ukraine so far, and like 20-30,000 their proxies. Russia has to mobilize their reserves which it said it will never do back in March. As far as I am concerned at this point Ukraine can regain the South regions by winter.
Ukraine is the perfect trojan horse to blow Putin and his shithole off the geopolitical map, after this war is done it won't even be a regional power anymore. And I like majority of people in US are all for it.
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Sep 22 2022 09:35am
Quote (ownyaah @ Sep 22 2022 08:11am)
Podolyak was saying 200 kia per day. That is around 40000 dead. If russia/lpr/dpr/wagner has 20000 deaths that would mean a 1:2 ratio.

I think both sides are full of shit and deaths are closer to 1.5:1 in russias favour so far. But i do expect ratio to favour russians far more if they inc density and just pound in a defensive war.

If they go on the move to take zap-city and other big offensives (outside of donestk), then ratio should hover around 1-1.5ish.


The Pentagon is saying between 100-200 per day, while simultaneously estimating 70k-80k Russian casualties as of last month. Keep in mind casualties = KIA + wounded. But if the general ratio of 3:1 wounded to killed holds up, 80k casualties = 20k dead and would be in keeping with other estimates.

I agree that 1.5:1 in Russia's favor is probably accurate.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Sep 22 2022 06:25am)
That 5k number is masking true losses on Russia's side because the bulk of the forces doing war on their side are dnpr/lnpr conscripts and contract fighters like wagner. So those losses wouldn't be getting counted towards official military losses.

On Ukraine's side, I don't think the ratio is that high but 3:1 or 2:1 is realistic. One factor that you're ignoring is the fact that this is an artillery war which Russia has vast superiority and Ukrainian forces on the front repeatedly have said that they get shelled at much higher rates versus what they fire. You don't have to be a genius to deduce the side that get's shelled by artillery rounds more will have more casualties.


Yes, Russia greatly outclasses Ukraine in artillery, but it's not just an artillery war. Thousands of tanks, APCs, IFVs, trucks, etc have been destroyed. If we were to assume that only the driver was killed, that's thousands of men right there, much less infantry actions and Ukrainian artillery.

Quote (chopstickz777 @ Sep 22 2022 09:44am)
Russia gave their casualties. It's around 6 thousand, with more than half of those sustained during the first two months due to the heavy offensive operations. Things have slowed down since then.

That doesn't count DPR/LPR or Wagner or the Chechens, throw them in and the casualties for allied forces are around 15k.

Ukraine is much higher due to the extremely high casualty rate caused by Russian shelling. I mean, they lost 5k trying to attack Kherson and by all accounts, another 5k or so when they went into Kharkov.

It truly is a war, down to the "last Ukrainian"

The entire male Ukrainian population shall be sacrificed to fit the needs of Brandon & Co


Casualty = KIA plus wounded, FYI.
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Sep 22 2022 09:37am


Russia right now
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Sep 22 2022 09:37am
Quote (ferdia @ 22 Sep 2022 17:20)
your proposition is flawed on the basis both parties would not be totally ok with it afterwards. Also, you constantly use the expression bothsidesisms when in fact it is logical to view a position from all its sides. the term bothsidesisms does not belong in this thread or the PARD subforums. it is a crutch used to ignore real failings in people's arguments/positions.

However, unlike most people here I have no issue stating my view and accepting the stares.

A peace treaty (notice i did not use the word "fair") would be similar to what ownyaah had stated above. if it helps i will say it again:

1. Donetsk/luhansk become autonomous
2. Ukraine writes neutrality into its constitution


i had hoped you were intelligent enough to recognise this is a hypothetical. of course you can't make both sides happy at this point, i thought that was understood. my goal here is not to craft a realistic peace plan and send you, ferdia, as a negotiator to implement it, i was just curious what you PERSONALLY would consider as fair. i wrote the line about "both parties would be totally ok with it" in order to signal that i don't want you to hide behind feasibility concerns as an excuse. would be great if you could answer this, but a refusal to do so is an answer in itself as well to be fair...

concerning your "peace treaty": that's literally what russia is trying to sell as a compromise and in REALITY it means:

Quote (fender @ 22 Sep 2022 17:08)
- those regions are russian controlled puppets, just waiting for a full integration at some later point in history
- ukraine writes into its own constitution that it's no longer a sovereign nation


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Sep 22 2022 09:37am
Quote (Surfpunk @ 22 Sep 2022 08:25)
It's like clockwork.


Its okay, he asked Putin, only 6000 dead.
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