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Sep 20 2022 06:45am
Some break away regions like Luhansk and Dontesk are expected to hold referendums between 23-27th of this month to join Russia with the Russian Duma already basically saying they will accept those regions into the Russian federation.

This doesn't really change much on the ground as far as the war but it's a signaling mechanism that the Russians really don't intend to give back those regions as part of some peace negotiation. Also if those regions join, the people there will naturally receive Russian passports, pensions, etc. further separating them from Ukraine. I was skeptical of Ukraine holding their territorial integrity but after this even more so.
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Sep 20 2022 06:54am
Quote (kusotarre1 @ Sep 20 2022 01:42am)
https://www.dictionary.com/e/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/cool-story-bro-2.jpg

So anyways, to get this thread back on topic.

It seems the frontline has largely stabilized. There are some areas where Ukraine is still making slow progress, some areas where Russia is making progress. Bakhmut is under threat but it seems unlikely to fall to Russia, surely Ukraine is going to heavily reinforce this. The flooding of the Ingulets continues to pose problems for Ukrainian massing in prep for attacks.

Russia is attacking more power plants, specifically targeting the ancillary parts and not yet punching holes into the actual cores of these facilities. Many people are now saying that Russia is preparing to 'upgrade' this conflict to a less restrictive "counterterrorism" designation, in order to commit more of their forces to Ukraine. Who knows, Russian incompetency and box-checking knows no bounds IMO.

On the Home Front, things are deteriorating. In addition to the catastrophe of non-ferrous metals production I've linked to before, we now know that at least 14 steel mills throughout Europe have shut down at least some of their blast furnaces due to high energy prices. European authorities have been steadfast in saying that they can make it through winter with modest 10% reductions in energy use, but are simultaneously seeking to subsidize gas bills for home use, which will ensure that the cuts to energy use comes from industry. We're already seeing Germany attain net-importer status, so that's pretty troubling.

Fun times ahead!


at the end of the day all forms of monetary policy is ultimately pushing around peas on a plate. Subsidization doesn't create supply. They can cut their energy from consumers or from industry, but without a new source of imports they must cut their consumption one way or another. When they lose 40% of their gas imports, they can't cut only 10% of consumption. And historically, no governments in history have been better at steering themselves into economic crisis in total denialism, than the postwar EU
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Sep 20 2022 06:56am
I really wonder how they are going to do a their invalid referendum in Donezk when ukrainians control about 40% of the region. I guess it doesn't matter in those kind of referendums.

This post was edited by BaHgerAUT on Sep 20 2022 06:56am
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Sep 20 2022 07:05am
Quote (BaHgerAUT @ Sep 20 2022 07:56am)
I really wonder how they are going to do a their invalid referendum in Donezk when ukrainians control about 40% of the region. I guess it doesn't matter in those kind of referendums.


didn't stop Ukraine from holding elections after the coup
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Sep 20 2022 07:17am
Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 20 2022 02:05pm)
didn't stop Ukraine from holding elections after the coup


after the liberation, liberation!
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Sep 20 2022 09:07am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 20 Sep 2022 14:45)
Some break away regions like Luhansk and Dontesk are expected to hold referendums between 23-27th of this month to join Russia with the Russian Duma already basically saying they will accept those regions into the Russian federation.

This doesn't really change much on the ground as far as the war but it's a signaling mechanism that the Russians really don't intend to give back those regions as part of some peace negotiation. Also if those regions join, the people there will naturally receive Russian passports, pensions, etc. further separating them from Ukraine. I was skeptical of Ukraine holding their territorial integrity but after this even more so.

It changes a whole lot on the ground because Ukrainian attacks on these regions would subsequently be interpreted by Russia as an attack on Russian soil. This is a big deal because the Russian nuclear doctrine states that nukes can be deployed if Russian territory is under attack and cannot be defended with other (read: conventional) means.

So this step would drastically up the ante when it comes to the "nuclear game of poker" between the two sides. In theory, it would mean that if the Ukrainian counterattack in Donbass rolls the Russian troops there, Russia would (according to its own nuclear doctrine) be allowed to answer by nuking Kyiv.
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Sep 20 2022 09:19am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 20 2022 11:07am)
It changes a whole lot on the ground because Ukrainian attacks on these regions would subsequently be interpreted by Russia as an attack on Russian soil. This is a big deal because the Russian nuclear doctrine states that nukes can be deployed if Russian territory is under attack and cannot be defended with other (read: conventional) means.

So this step would drastically up the ante when it comes to the "nuclear game of poker" between the two sides. In theory, it would mean that if the Ukrainian counterattack in Donbass rolls the Russian troops there, Russia would (according to its own nuclear doctrine) be allowed to answer by nuking Kyiv.


I thought about this but this is max pain scenario that I find unlikely to play out, at least following up on the nukes threat. We'll still see skirmishes in the south and east but what's more clear is in the long term they really have no intention of giving back this land. If they had the intention to maybe giving it back they wouldn't be codifying this now because you risk looking like a complete idiot and weak to have to give back "Russian" land as consequence to achieve peace. Interesting to see if Kherson/Zap will follow or maybe those will be delayed for now as a bargaining chip to stop the war and come to negotiate.

Realistically a lot of things would have to escalate for them to feel the need for nukes. If Ukraine raises a 1 million man army and continues to get tens if not hundreds of billions of weapons from the west insisting all territories be returned then yeah Russia most likely will be forced in a scenario like this to probably nuke.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Sep 20 2022 09:27am
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Sep 20 2022 09:22am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 20 2022 04:07pm)
It changes a whole lot on the ground because Ukrainian attacks on these regions would subsequently be interpreted by Russia as an attack on Russian soil. This is a big deal because the Russian nuclear doctrine states that nukes can be deployed if Russian territory is under attack and cannot be defended with other (read: conventional) means.

So this step would drastically up the ante when it comes to the "nuclear game of poker" between the two sides. In theory, it would mean that if the Ukrainian counterattack in Donbass rolls the Russian troops there, Russia would (according to its own nuclear doctrine) be allowed to answer by nuking Kyiv.


I do agree that an attack on Russian soil is probably a big red line for Russia, one which the US probably acknowledges. However in the current climate I do not envisage Russian treating land taken as Russian soil, in this context.
tend to agree with ofthevoid here, I dont see the russians as pedantic (the west is though haha).

This post was edited by ferdia on Sep 20 2022 09:24am
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Sep 20 2022 09:26am
Quote (ofthevoid @ 20 Sep 2022 17:19)
I thought about this but this is max pain scenario that I find unlikely to play out, at least following up on the nukes threat. We'll still see skirmishes in the south and east but what's more clear is in the long term they really have no intention of giving back this land. If they had the intention to maybe giving it back they wouldn't be codifying this now because you risk looking like a complete idiot and weak to have to give back "Russian" land as consequence to achieve peace. Interesting to see if Kherson/Zap will follow or maybe those will be delayed for now as a bargaining chip to stop the war and come to negotiate.


Quote (ferdia @ 20 Sep 2022 17:22)
I do agree that an attack on Russian soil is probably a big red line for Russia, one which the US probably acknowledges. However in the current climate I do not envisage Russian treating land taken as Russian soil, in this context.
tend to agree with ofthevoid here.


I agree that this is an extreme scenario and Russia is probably bluffing, but still. Russia officially annexing these regions brings the scenario to the table, which would be bad enough, even if it's unlikely to actually play out.
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Sep 20 2022 09:27am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Sep 20 2022 04:26pm)
I agree that this is an extreme scenario and Russia is probably bluffing, but still. Russia officially annexing these regions brings the scenario to the table, which would be bad enough, even if it's unlikely to actually play out.


no doubt there are serious meeting going on in western command center's relating to this!

also the russians are not bluffing, if they are annexing land, thats what they are doing, for now. you will note that i tend not to converse in debate relating to the ebb and flow of the war, noting situations can rapidly change. i dont give a view on an action noting its the wider position that is safer to comment on.

This post was edited by ferdia on Sep 20 2022 09:33am
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