if you're saying the history of how a region became what it is doesn't matter than the concept of right to self determination goes out the window as a century from now it won't matter what happened in ukraine today



let's throw away the moral arguments then

what are we left with? i find the western sphere of influence to be more to my taste (i can call trudeau a cunt without disappearing) compared to the alternatives out there
to that extent i would support all actions that reduce the sphere of influence that china and russia have in the world.

It's pretty clear what I'm saying. You want to get on a moral high horse and say countries deserve self-determination while simultaneously discarding regional/internal self-determination. Can't really have it both ways just so it's convenient to your argument. History matters, but you don't get to deny someone's point of view because you're rationalizing why what they believe now is wrong, especially as an outsider.

the problem with this is you have said "all actions". Thats a very broad brush!!

The current actions lead to war and hatred where instead diplomacy would have got us to the same spot without war. We have created these enemies for our children without caring for the suffering of the common people that are always forgotten to history. For decades Russia will now ever distrust the west where instead we could have slowly come together. i see it as a monumental mistake on the part of Nato and the US.

what do you find so distasteful about china and russia, that other powers have already committed multiple times themselves? i dont understand this double standards.


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broadly i understand what you are saying and am somewhat aligned, but going to war / destroying russia and china because they are different? really?

This post was edited by ferdia on Sep 19 2022 08:22am

How to start a war with Russia starter pack

Step one: Select a former Soviet republic preferably one that has close ties with Moscow. If they have a Russian naval / military base on their territory that's even better.

Step two: Warm them up by paying their gas bills, offering trade deals and promise future NATO and EU membership.

Step three: Get protesters out on the streets, give them EU flags and tell them to shit on Russia. Send Western representatives to address the crowd, promising the West has their backs.

Step four: When Russia freaks out and uses it's military to restore the status quo, dogpile on them with sanctions and provide billions and billions in military aid for the ex-Soviet republic you want to control.

Step five: Get in bed with corrupt far left MSM for propaganda purposes, they will tell everyone that Russia wants to swallow up the Western world and that the people of the ex-Soviet republic wanted closer ties with us all along, and Russia bad bad bad by the way.

Enjoy the war.

This post was edited by Djunior on Sep 19 2022 09:01am

to be clear i'm not advocating for world war 3
i'm saying we should be supporting economic measures that turn most countries westward over time

what i find distasteful about china/russia specifically is the level of control they have over their populations and the fact that criticizing leadership has harsh consequences whereas here in the west you can buy toilet paper with trump/biden/obama's face on it

In Russia and China, all you apparently need is money to be comfortable. in this regard i see them as no different then other parts of the world. Yes the value of life is different in different parts of the world and in different parts of the world you can't stand on the grass, but this fact existed once upon a time not long ago in western countries.

Have you asked the people in China how they feel about it?
Just because you don't like eating KFC doesn't mean someone else don't.

Step four point one: Properly blame Russia because Russia actually started the war.

What's the point of being able to say whatever you want if in the end you get some of the most unresponsive governments in the world?

If you include in your definition of "democracy" any demand on results, any demand on people getting what they want, the farce of western democracy becomes clear. You get to talk and gripe all you want about whatever insane conspiracy theory you believe in, but you have almost zero impact on policy. There's a reason Chinese people see their country as more democratic than Americans, Canadians, French of Germans see theirs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-06-26/which-nations-are-democracies-some-citizens-might-disagree

Also, seriously, you don't know what you're talking about, Chinese people's number one hobby is complaining about things, particularly their government.

This post was edited by kusotarre1 on Sep 19 2022 11:33am

Everyone can pay for the bullet used to kill your family member for saying aloud wrongthink!