Quote (Djunior @ 17 Sep 2022 08:45)

If that "influencing" didn't happen there would be no conflict right now and no one would care about "Vlad the man", can't you see how frikkin dumb your are?

Now go cry more you pos multi, bout time your new account gets slammed just like your previous one.

Quote (Ironfister @ Sep 17 2022 10:13pm)

Russia/USSR leaders dont give a damn about their citizens. A country rich in natural resources should be heaven for its citizens, like Norway where people are rich as fuck and they dont want to enter EU so they dont have to hang out with "poor" western countries.
Instead the Russia leaders only focus on building empire, by conquest.
People dont want to be slaves in their country, dont want to be merely a tool for building an empire, dont want to be used as conscripts in the offensive wars.
They want to live western style life, where people enjoy life.
Thats why people/countries leave Russia/USSR, whenever they get a chance.
USA doesnt have to trigger protests, or persuade people, people persuade themselves when they travel or hear stories about people who went abroad.
its enough if USA says "hey, we support rising democrasies around the world, if you want to hop in come on".

Quote (Ironfister @ Sep 17 2022 10:13pm)

Russia/USSR leaders dont give a damn about their citizens. A country rich in natural resources should be heaven for its citizens, like Norway where people are rich as fuck and they dont want to enter EU so they dont have to hang out with "poor" western countries.
Instead the Russia leaders only focus on building empire, by conquest.
People dont want to be slaves in their country, dont want to be merely a tool for building an empire, dont want to be used as conscripts in the offensive wars.
They want to live western style life, where people enjoy life.
Thats why people/countries leave Russia/USSR, whenever they get a chance.
USA doesnt have to trigger protests, or persuade people, people persuade themselves when they travel or hear stories about people who went abroad.
its enough if USA says "hey, we support rising democrasies around the world, if you want to hop in come on".

Quote (ferdia @ 15 Sep 2022 23:44)

(...)

Again, this is quite simple: The pro-EU / pro-Russia demographics of the country were split geographically. Kiev is situated deep in the pro-EU areas. The people there overwhelming opposed the regime that was elected democratically by the will of the entire country. They rioted, they overthrew the government by force in a violent coup. The people who had elected Yanukovych lived largely in the east, where he was a former governor of the most populous oblast. The majority of Ukrainians were represented by him in a democracy, they were disenfranchised when the minority overthrew the democracy
You cannot rationalize this as some legislative gridlock or will of the overwhelming majority of the people. It was a textbook violent coup that overthrew a government, full stop.

Democracies, Ukrainian and American alike, have civil recourses and safety valves and separations of powers built into them. If you don't like the last guy who got elected, you can vote against him in the next election. That's how a democracy works.
Overthrowing a government you disagree with, by force, is a coup. And when the CIA gets involved and micromanages it, we can call it a CIA coup.

Quote (Djunior @ 17 Sep 2022 22:26)

According to you world-wide energy crisis, world-wide food crisis, countries potentially going broke and a war that could turn into WW3 is worth this?

Nah I'll pass, and you'll see that more and more people will start realizing what's going on here and that it aint worth it just like Vietnam wasn't worth it and Afghanistan wasn't worth it.

Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 16 2022 02:01pm)

And Ashlee Babbitt was an unarmed non-violent January 6th rioters who was shot and killed by DC police. And those rioters were more interested in taking selfies and lounging around than overthrowing a government.
There was an insurrection and coup going on in Ukraine, blaming the security forces for trying to quell it doesn't rationalize it whatsoever.

Again, this is quite simple: The pro-EU / pro-Russia demographics of the country were split geographically. Kiev is situated deep in the pro-EU areas. The people there overwhelming opposed the regime that was elected democratically by the will of the entire country. They rioted, they overthrew the government by force in a violent coup. The people who had elected Yanukovych lived largely in the east, where he was a former governor of the most populous oblast. The majority of Ukrainians were represented by him in a democracy, they were disenfranchised when the minority overthrew the democracy
You cannot rationalize this as some legislative gridlock or will of the overwhelming majority of the people. It was a textbook violent coup that overthrew a government, full stop.

Democracies, Ukrainian and American alike, have civil recourses and safety valves and separations of powers built into them. If you don't like the last guy who got elected, you can vote against him in the next election. That's how a democracy works.
Overthrowing a government you disagree with, by force, is a coup. And when the CIA gets involved and micromanages it, we can call it a CIA coup.

So here's my question for PARD: Why is getting people to acknowledge reality about Euromaidan so completely different in the public consciousness than every previous CIA coup? Nobody gets their knickers in a twist when we talk about Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Nicaragua. Panama, etc etc. Why is Ukraine suddenly an exception? They didn't even take the cursory effort to obfuscate their presence and give plausible deniability, they put Hunter friggin Biden and Cofer Black on the Burisma board while Nuland and Pyatt appraised Ukrainian resumes on an unsecured phone line.

Quote (Ironfister @ Sep 17 2022 09:55pm)

...Also Ukraine was on a track into EU, yet Yanukovycz cancelled it.

There is now 91% support for EU membership in Ukraine. (source: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/record-number-ukrainians-support-joining-eu-backing-nato-membership-falls-poll-2022-04-05/ )
Its thefinal proof, 91% is a serious support.

Quote (Goomshill @ Sep 18 2022 01:27am)

Whether Ukraine would have moved westwards is one of those defunct hypotheticals. Left intact, would Ukraine have eventually been swallowed up by peaceful and democratic western philosophy that led to their eventual embrace of NATO? There's arguments for and against. Perhaps popular sentiment was indeed shifting, even breaking into the east. But they elected Yanukovych and he sided with the east. That was as far as we got before their democracy collapsed. Perhaps if Ukraine started showing signs of bucking Russian influence peacefully, Putin would have been willing to invade anyway to stifle NATO expansion. Perhaps their oligarchy would have sided more with Russia on its own. We don't know. The CIA stuck their noses in and micromanaged a color revolution and set in motion the last 8 years.

Now the US talking points are just garbage that require you to embrace democratic jingoism while ignoring that inconvenient bit about us toppling a democracy. We're the champions of democracy, and we'll kill anyone who votes against us! Yee-haw!
like this;
https://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/91622-0
bad enough even when you subtract the ban on the opposition and literal nazis.

Quote (kusotarre1 @ Sep 18 2022 05:21pm)

Whataboutism is a funny rhetorical trick, it allows the invoker to ignore any demand that they explain the grounds of their moral/ethical/political inconsistency.