May 2022 https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/24/henry-kissinger-ukraine-russia-territory-davos/

Former U.S. secretary of state Henry A. Kissinger said Monday that Ukraine should cede territory to Russia to help end the invasion, suggesting a position that a vast majority of Ukrainians are against as the war enters its fourth month. Speaking at a conference at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, Kissinger urged the United States and the West to not seek an embarrassing defeat for Russia in Ukraine, warning it could worsen Europe’s long-term stability. After saying that Western countries should remember Russia’s importance to Europe and not get swept up “in the mood of the moment,” Kissinger also pushed for the West to force Ukraine into accepting negotiations with a “status quo ante,” which means the previous state of affairs. “Negotiations need to begin in the next two months before it creates upheavals and tensions that will not be easily overcome. Ideally, the dividing line should be a return to the status quo ante,” said Kissinger, 98, according to the Daily Telegraph.

“Pursuing the war beyond that point would not be about the freedom of Ukraine, but a new war against Russia itself.”

The “status quo ante” mentioned by Kissinger, who was secretary of state to Presidents Richard M. Nixon and Gerald Ford, refers to restoring a situation in which Russia formally controlled Crimea and informally controlled Ukraine’s two easternmost regions of Luhansk and Donetsk. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has emphasized that part of his conditions for entering peace talks with Russia would include a restoration of preinvasion borders.

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Please define what "win" means here, because as far as I am concerned there are no winners here.

I do not envisage Russia giving up crimea & eastern parts ukraine. if and when it gets to that state uncontested by western forces, I would term it a russian "win" (while accepting on the international stage (western anyway) Russia are lepers.
Ukraine "winning" would be to have the above occur and for the rest of Ukraine to be completely independent (in all way shape and form) from russia. ukraine in its entirety may never be ready to accept this.

I dont see other wins (i.e. the west saying "sorry we created this war", or russia saying "here have crimea and eastern ukraine back and sorry about taking your nukes") those are fantasy land from my current view.

This post was edited by ferdia on Sep 12 2022 06:37am

They can keep going, probably will but most people knowledgeable on this issue understand the dynamics and know that peace will come with some sort of territorial concessions. You realize that Crimea being acknowledged as Russia by Ukraine was a given as early as February right? So no going back to 2014 borders is not realistic nor expected. Realistically even the Donbass won't be returned. Kharkiv/Zap/Kherson going back could be on the table though.

I think the longer this goes in the more favorable it is to Russia from an economic perspective tbh

Supply chains have been redistributed and their key exports have record level price inflation

These new trade paradigms will not go away even if this conflict ends

Europe being the greatest loser here (aside from Ukraine ofc)

Short term loser perhaps.

Sure is firing up the self-sufficient drive across Europe though. More renewables, more nuclear and never again bending to the whims of some deranged despot.

Imo, a good thing.

and the resources for those "renewables" come from another despot

... God?

lol@ the shit people write here
so many naive idiots in one place , we are doomed as a species.

xi jinping would appreciate this

jokes aside though, how do people forget about the insane amounts of material for all the panels, windmills etc, how they are manufactured and who controls the market?

Well I dunno about Europe but we've got mill/panel producers in the UK.

Nothing really stopping us from making them ourselves.

Russia has abandoned all positions west of the River Oskil after being routed.