Quote (Ghot @ Apr 23 2019 01:08pm)

Blah, blah, blah. Here, I'll try another way.


On one hand we have diversity, equality, and free everything. On the other hand we have something that's built into every human being. The seven deadly sins. They are: they are pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth.

Things like socialism will work 100% of the time for a group of humans that have NONE of the 7 deadly sins. BUT, if even one person in that group have even ONE of the 7 deadly sins, socialism (in this example) falls apart.
Say one person in the group is.... greedy. Oh noes, there goes perfect socialism. Same for lazy, lust, envy, pride, gluttony and wrath.



/e Btw, the bandaid versions of some socialistic system that allow for the reality of the 7 deadly sins... don't work either. This is OLD news.

Quote (Black XistenZ @ Apr 22 2019 07:00pm)

This is exactly what the situation in Western Europe is for asylum seekers: once an asylum seeker from the muslim world or sub-saharan africa makes it to France/UK/Netherlands/Germany/Sweden/Italy, the various social security benefits that he is immediately entitled to amount to at least tripling his monthly income compared to his situation in his home country; and since deportations are only happening in homeopathic numbers, the vast majority of them (so far) are staying even if their asylum application is ultimately rejected.

What happened in Europe starting in 2015 is exactly the scenario you're talking about.


The tldr is that the UBI can only work if we can find an absolutely bullet-proof way (in the legal sense) of restricting the UBI to american citizens. It must be done in a fashion that makes it impossible for human rights activists, lawyers or activist courts to overturn.

In this regard, Germany should once again serve as a cautionary tale: those legal shenanigans are where things broke down here in Germany when, in 2012, our version of the supreme court issued a landmark ruling that it is unconstitutonal for the state benefits paid out to asylum seekers to be lower than the so-called "socioeconomic minimum". Effectively, this meant that it was impossible to cut benefits to ayslum seekers, even those who entered the country illegally or those whose application had been rejected, below the level of basic welfare paid to Germans. Since entitlements and benefits in the U.S. are generally a lot lower, legal issues arising from attempts at excluding foreigners (who are found to be undeserving in some legal sense) from benefits are less salient in the States. But with an UBI, a myriad of legal pitfalls like this one would become highly relevant all of a sudden.

Quote (ofthevoid @ Apr 23 2019 12:40pm)

Back of the napkin math says it's not enough to cover the UBI. Everything is levered, you press on one side of the fulcrum and the other side goes up.

For example one of the things that is mentioned is the technology tax. Okay, maybe, but you have to understand that higher taxes on corporations means fewer profits, fewer profits means less expenditure on R&D, less expenditure on R&D and our companies might start losing ground to the Huawei's of the world. Fewer profits also means fewer jobs created by those corps. Fewer profits also means less Return on Investment, so once again less capital would be flowing into these companies.

I get the argument but some of the answers are sophomoric as if there is some easy fix that's right in front of our eyes. I don't know what the answer is, maybe a basic UBI is a good idea, maybe some hybrid plan is better. One thing's for sure is if this happens, the borders need to be airtight. Something like 70% of the world lives on under 4 grand a year. Can you imagine what would happen if there was a country where if you only make it there and stay long enough you can collect 3x?

Quote (Plaguefear @ Apr 22 2019 10:12pm)

No it is not, and this lazy mentality of the baby boomers that "our shit corrupt flawed system can never improve" is nonsense and your generation needs to die off so we can finally progress.

Quote (Voyaging @ Apr 22 2019 07:45pm)

yang sux

Bernie or bust

Quote (Ghot @ Apr 23 2019 01:19pm)

Blah, blah, blah.


Ok this is as simple as I can think to make it....


Let's say we have 6 cavemen, and they kill an elk or similar. In this socialistic fairy land they all divide the work and the food equally. BUT... there will always be that one caveman that is smarter, or bigger, or faster, and over time he will think that HE deserves a bit more than the others.

Oh noes... there goes your socialism.

Humans have had recorded history for what... maybe 8000 years. In all that time, no one, no matter how smart, and even starting with the perfect group, has succeeded in making socialism work.

Bot NOW, you PaRDians come along and poof, you will solve all the problems that have plagued past attempts at socialism. Color me doubtful. It's nothing personal...it's just I have the ODDS on my side.

Quote (FGdumpster @ Apr 23 2019 01:19pm)

If all cultures and civilizations are equal, then since both leftism and white supremacy are cultures, are they not also equal?

If so, why then advocate for one culture over another? Is that not some perverse gentrification since leftism itself is a creation of western culture.

Quote (Plaguefear @ Apr 22 2019 08:22pm)

Under a Negative income tax that caveman would get more. and no one is saying he shouldn't, but he would not get vastly more elk than everyone else, because the other 5 helped him take them down too and his dumb ass probably couldn't even start a fire to cook it..
You have no idea what socialism is so stop using it to describe literally anything that lowers wealth inequality.


Makes up complete nonsense talking point no one has made, argues against it.
Ah the right, always entertaining.

Quote (ofthevoid @ 23 Apr 2019 04:14)

I hear ya. The thing is Europe's economy is not doing too hot. Growth is anemic and your interest rates are already near zero so you don't even have the option to use expansionary monetary policy to spur these economies on. Couple that with steady low skilled immigration that's heavily reliant on social safety nets...what a shit show. It's frustrating when you see the problem, you see how much bigger the problem will become and yet a multitude of low iq indiivduals call you a bigot or racist or fill in the blank for trying to speak about the issue.

Quote (Plaguefear @ Apr 22 2019 10:22pm)

Under a Negative income tax that caveman would get more. and no one is saying he shouldn't, but he would not get vastly more elk than everyone else, because the other 5 helped him take them down too and his dumb ass probably couldn't even start a fire to cook it..
You have no idea what socialism is so stop using it to describe literally anything that lowers wealth inequality.

Quote (FGdumpster @ Apr 23 2019 01:24pm)

Do you believe all cultures are equal?

Quote (Ghot @ Apr 23 2019 01:26pm)

The ism doesn't matter bro. Be it socialism, communism, etc., Look at China. They have working communism. Except...they need a god like Emperor and martial law (for lack of as better phrase), to make it work.

Look at countries like Norway, Australia, etc. they have a type of socialism that ONLY works because they don't spend enough (military might) to keep out the greedy caveman... they allow the US to do that for them. Then they diss the US because they don't have the same system. :/