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Jan 16 2020 12:16pm
Quote (ThatAlex @ Jan 16 2020 12:05pm)
I see your point. No one dies from mass surveillance, either. But the coordination between mass surveillance and a police state from an authoritarian government probably plays a role. And capitalist countries have mass surveillance operations in effect, too.

The key point of this discussion is what aspect of the authoritarian government likely plays a larger role in this atrocity?

My point is that I concede the economy played a role in getting there but mass surveillance and a police state played larger roles.


both the economy and police state are symptoms of an undemocratic centralized govt, thats what i meant with my aids example.

people can make arguments against a socialist economy, they can make arguments against a police state, they can make arguments against oppresion of the minority. but all 3 of them are present in countries with centralized power.

true enough the USA did act as a police state, the trail of tears, govt backed slave hunters, lack of legal support for spousal abuse, etc. but when did this all happen? 100ish years ago, when the USA didnt allow women or nonwhites to vote, or even nonproperty owners. even when they were given the "right" they werent given equal access to polling stations, or police presence to ensure their vote. then they get the right to vote and in the amount of time ive been alive we get the civil rights movement, improved legal backing for women, destruction of native reculturing schools, etc.

simply put a lack of democracy and control over the economy of a state lead to oppression, both in the pursuit of keeping that power and making more money. let us not forget that the GDP of citizens and their economic status has shot through the roof, it was all going so great. then they started farming organs, mass surveillance, and genocide. and it never could have gone any other way. the only thing preventing this from happening in scandanavia is their lack of control of the economy.
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Jan 16 2020 12:26pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 16 2020 01:14pm)
Authoritarianism is also just the symptom, not the cause.

When does a government have to resort to authoritarian rule? Answer: when the goals of the political leadership are not in sync with the desires or needs of the people. Therefore, the more a political system goes against human nature and/or the more it facilitates corruption by an elite (be it the communist cadres in China or plutocrats in the U.S.), the higher the likelihood for it to take an authoritarian turn. The more inconsistencies there are in a political/social system, the more effort is required to keep the status quo alive.

In this sense, the communist or pseudo-communist system of China does contribute to incidents like this one. If the CCCP didnt have to fear public unrest and criticism of its leaders as much, they wouldnt even feel compelled to build all this dystopian surveillance infrastructure and to nip any kind of dissent in the bud.


More generally, this argument also explains why democracy, despite all its problems and imperfections, has proven so resilient; and in particular why it is more stable than communist/socialist systems: in a democracy, even an imperfect one, the people are able to course correct and keep the leadership somewhat attuned to the desires and needs of the people. Democracy enables a peaceful and non-revolutionary dissolution of social tensions and conflicts of interest, something that isnt possible in dogmatic systems which are anchored by a "the party is always right"-doctrine.


China's government is very capitalistic. They turned their country into a factory for the world.

Social democracy is still democracy.

You kind of proved my initial point that illiberalism is the problem in your argument.

To be clear: democracy is a political system and socialism is an economic system and they can exist together in harmony like they already do in so many places.

Liberalism and libertarianism is the solution to illiberalism and authoritarianism.

The illiberal government of China is illiberal because it believes humans do not have rights. Liberal socialist believe humans have rights....it is staggering that you do not consider this an important delineating factor. You have such a critical blind spot sometimes because you are very ideologically committed.

Ideological commitment is the death of critical thinking. You have to do philosophy with a hammer and a tuning fork :)

This post was edited by Skinned on Jan 16 2020 12:26pm
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Jan 16 2020 12:27pm
Quote (Skinned @ Jan 16 2020 12:26pm)
China's government is very capitalistic. They turned their country into a factory for the world.

Social democracy is still democracy.

You kind of proved my initial point that illiberalism is the problem in your argument.

To be clear: democracy is a political system and socialism is an economic system and they can exist together in harmony like they already do in so many places.

Liberalism and libertarianism is the solution to illiberalism and authoritarianism.

The illiberal government of China is illiberal because it believes humans do not have rights. Liberal socialist believe humans have rights....it is staggering that you do not consider this an important delineating factor. You have such a critical blind spot sometimes because you are very ideologically committed.


thus is the story of communism. your labor belongs to you, and you belong to the state.
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Jan 16 2020 12:33pm
"Socialism" is a brand for billionaires, nationalists, authoritarians who handle Chinese parliament.
When i see idiots enjoying billionaires taking political power in US... Wow.
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Jan 16 2020 12:33pm
Quote (thesnipa @ 16 Jan 2020 13:27)
thus is the story of communism. your labor belongs to you, and you belong to the state.


ding ding ding. to each according to their needs too. the state needs a lot, you as a person you do not need those things.
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Jan 16 2020 12:36pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jan 16 2020 01:27pm)
thus is the story of communism. your labor belongs to you, and you belong to the state.


Yep. And China is far from a classless society...I'm not sure why any of these people believe that
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Jan 16 2020 12:40pm
Quote (thesnipa @ Jan 16 2020 01:27pm)
thus is the story of communism. your labor belongs to you, and you belong to the state.

what happens in a communist country when human labor is no longer needed?
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Jan 16 2020 12:40pm
Quote (Skinned @ Jan 16 2020 12:36pm)
Yep. And China is far from a classless society...I'm not sure why any of these people believe that


not yet, they have a few classes to be pruned from society. once all those pesky muslims and poor with clean organs are out of the way they can reach their final form.

Quote (tagged4nothing @ Jan 16 2020 12:40pm)
what happens in a communist country when human labor is no longer needed?


lots of people have 1 kidney and enough food rations to starve slowly, is my guess. but luckily china isnt nearly industrialized that much, and their relaxed labor safety laws make expendable humans a better investment than pure automation.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Jan 16 2020 12:41pm
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Jan 16 2020 12:42pm
Quote (thesnipa @ 16 Jan 2020 19:40)
not yet, they have a few classes to be pruned from society. once all those pesky muslims and poor with clean organs are out of the way they can reach their final form.


Automatization of human body, brain implants. Green energy.
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Jan 16 2020 12:43pm
Quote (Saucisson6000 @ Jan 16 2020 12:42pm)
Automatization of human body, brain implants. Green energy.


if any country is going to try "human batteries" its china, 100%.
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