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Jan 18 2020 10:44am
Quote (EndlessSky @ 18 Jan 2020 17:00)
Life is a struggle against material problems and setbacks. This limits a lot of the "freedom" we can actually have.

The best a society can do is allow people to float at their own natural level of ability. Any other right promised is a fairly tale with costs higher than the benefit itself.

In some cases that means living with assistance at an asylum. In some cases that means having a lot more prosperity than anyone else around you.

Property (including self/speech/religion) and non-aggression are the only two rights that pop up from that arrangement.

Capitalism is the least egoistic and most godly way of enforcing that playing field. Redistribution schemes have humans playing God and it never works. Those arrangements can only grant less rights.

China is currently so corrupt that it functions as an aristocracy right now. Moderate standard of living but no political freedom and massive predation on a scale we don't see here. The people have no control over their local or national government. Part of this is the culture. A large portion of Chinese citizens still support abominations like the 1 child policy and just willingly go along to get along. The state has the power to destroy you there and thus it owns you.


in capitalism, like in most other systems, the overwhelming majority of people can move up or down according to their ability, but only within a limited range around the position they were born in. in almost all cases, the son of a millionaire can only fall so far, no matter how incompetent or lazy he is; and the daughter of a plumber and a nurse will only be able to move up so far, even if she's doing everything right.

as I said, that's a feature of almost all systems and not a problem specific to capitalism; but it's still worth pointing out that "everyone floating to their natural level of ability" is not an accurate description of what's happening in capitalistic societies. those "from rags to riches" stories are very rare and dont reflect the reality of most people. also, most of those stories involve someone having insane amounts of talent coinciding with extreme luck. for every successful rapper/athlete/actor/businessman/lawyer who turned into a millionaire coming from a modest background, there are 10-100 equally talented individuals pursuing the same career who failed and got left along the way.
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Jan 18 2020 10:44am
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 18 2020 11:44am)
in capitalism, like in most other systems, the overwhelming majority of people can move up or down according to their ability, but only within a limited range around the position they were born in. in almost all cases, the son of a millionaire can only fall so far, no matter how incompetent or lazy he is; and the daughter of a plumber and a nurse will only be able to move up so far, even if she's doing everything right.

as I said, that's a feature of almost all systems and not a problem specific to capitalism; but it's still worth pointing out that "everyone floating to their natural level of ability" is not an accurate description of what's happening in capitalistic societies. those "from rags to riches" stories are very rare and dont reflect the reality of most people. also, most of those stories involve someone having insane amounts of talent coinciding with extreme luck. for every successful rapper/athlete/actor/businessman/lawyer who turned into a millionaire coming from a modest background, there are 10-100 equally talented individuals pursuing the same career who failed and got left along the way.


Crafting policy to target statistical outliers is a recipe for failure.

Quote (remco6 @ Jan 18 2020 11:43am)
Redistribution to a certain degree keeps heads off spikes every couple hundred years, not that you would ever have to be worried about being in that segment of the population


Churches and local organizations like the knights of Columbus have aided with redistribution for hundreds of years.

Why would we trust the government to do it when all they end up doing is lining their pockets with money that just seems to disappear?

This post was edited by EndlessSky on Jan 18 2020 10:46am
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Jan 18 2020 10:50am
Quote (Skinned @ Jan 16 2020 01:36pm)
Yep. And China is far from a classless society...I'm not sure why any of these people believe that


Communism is implemented, classes are abolished, power is centralized, a political class develops, and that political class consolidates power and passes it down to their descendants.

Socialism contradicts human nature.
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Jan 18 2020 10:53am
Quote (EndlessSky @ 18 Jan 2020 17:44)
Crafting policy to target statistical outliers is a recipe for failure.


Oh, I dont disagree with that, nor your first post. I was just adding a(n imho necessary) caveat to what you were saying.
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Jan 18 2020 03:15pm
Quote (bogie160 @ Jan 19 2020 03:50am)
Communism is implemented, classes are abolished, power is centralized, a political class develops, and that political class consolidates power and passes it down to their descendants.

Socialism contradicts human nature.


Communism and socialism are not the same thing.
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Jan 18 2020 03:18pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ Jan 18 2020 04:15pm)
Communism and socialism are not the same thing.


how would you describe china
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Jan 18 2020 03:22pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Jan 19 2020 08:18am)
how would you describe china


Communist dictatorship, the people do not own anything, the communist party owns nearly everything, and very few people are allowed to join the communist party.
Last i checked they accept 1 in 24 applications.
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Jan 18 2020 04:35pm
Quote (Plaguefear @ 18 Jan 2020 22:15)
Communism and socialism are not the same thing.


how would you define the difference?
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Jan 18 2020 04:47pm
Quote (duffman316 @ Jan 18 2020 04:18pm)
how would you describe china


Oligarchy, obv.

Communism means classless society.

This post was edited by Skinned on Jan 18 2020 04:47pm
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Jan 18 2020 05:07pm
Quote (Black XistenZ @ Jan 19 2020 09:35am)
how would you define the difference?


Under communism the state owns everything and uses that power to suppress the people, under socialism the people own everything and are allocated resources by a democratically elected government.
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