Charter Schools Vs Public Schools - Topic

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Sep 14 2016 12:43pm

Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 14 2016 01:25pm)

he has a point insofar that lawsuits by individuals against the government rarely produce fruit and are expensive and time consuming endeavors. But that speaks to the more large issue of an overpowered government and not against limited government. Unless you have a moral reason to fight it you're better off moving to private and letting Uncle Sam be without a lawyer on retainer by your union.

That's a problem that mostly stems from the courts-fabricated legal defense of "qualified immunity, and not a failing of seeking justice from the government in and of itself.

Quote (dro94 @ Sep 14 2016 01:31pm)

surely it makes more sense to have a teachers union to collectively bargain as a single entity, rather than each individual teacher bargain with the monopolistic state, which would hold all the bargaining power

Surely it makes more sense to have a singular stipend attached to each and every student that the student and their parents may take wherever they please.

dro94

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#62

Sep 14 2016 12:45pm

Quote (Santara @ Sep 14 2016 07:43pm)

Surely it makes more sense to have a singular stipend attached to each and every student that the student and their parents may take wherever they please.

i have my doubts

Santara

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#63

Sep 14 2016 12:48pm

Quote (dro94 @ Sep 14 2016 01:45pm)

i have my doubts

Because it's more important to leftists to empower a union than it is to treat absolutely everyone equally.

thesnipa

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#64

Sep 14 2016 12:57pm

Quote (Santara @ Sep 14 2016 12:43pm)

That's a problem that mostly stems from the courts-fabricated legal defense of "qualified immunity, and not a failing of seeking justice from the government in and of itself.

Surely it makes more sense to have a singular stipend attached to each and every student that the student and their parents may take wherever they please.

I meant that teachers unions, in the point he put forward, that being legal representation against the government, actually works as a check against undue power because of the difficulty of an individual without said union backing suing the government in reality. I said that because i think your response that individuals can sue the government is short change, anyone can sue anyone but its an amount of effort to win and percent chance to win that concern me. In reality without unions teachers have less legal recourse against the government, i pointed it out because of the irony at play.

dro94

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#65

Sep 14 2016 12:57pm

Quote (Santara @ Sep 14 2016 07:48pm)

Because it's more important to leftists to empower a union than it is to treat absolutely everyone equally.

unions protect workers rights and their existence doesn't cause inequality

...unlike free market fundamentalism

thesnipa

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#66

Sep 14 2016 01:01pm

Quote (dro94 @ Sep 14 2016 12:57pm)

unions protect workers rights and their existence doesn't cause inequality

...unlike free market fundamentalism

how can you hold this to be universally true with public unions though? isn't their holding of public services as ransom a force which makes in inherently unequal in terms of bargaining? Or maybe im misunderstanding you altogether.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Sep 14 2016 01:02pm

dro94

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#67

Sep 14 2016 01:04pm

Quote (thesnipa @ Sep 14 2016 08:01pm)

how can you hold this to be universally true with public unions though? isn't their holding of public services as ransom a force which makes in inherently unequal? Or maybe im misunderstanding you altogether.

maybe 'and their existence alone doesn't cause inequality' would be better terminology, i.e. a union isnt inherently bad, but they could be. it's important in this context because santara views things as either black or white, there is no middle ground. in his mind, unions are bad, end of story.

Skinned

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#68

Sep 14 2016 01:18pm

Quote (Santara @ Sep 14 2016 12:52pm)

1. Teacher's unions are focused on advancing the interests of teachers. More teachers, more pay for them, less accountability for them, etc.

2. That fight comes into direct conflict of the rights of the children to receive a quality education.

3. Often? Well golly, maybe that's because most children in the country go to public schools represented by union teachers? That's not saying anything substantive. Correlation =/= causation.

4. Teachers unions stand in the way of needed reform.

5. Um... the make sure the janitors get their jobs done?

6. That's a bad thing. Killing the lifeboats so that everyone goes down with the ship is retarded.

/e lol, inb4'd

Weaksauce.jpg.

You just said "no" with no backup. The facts I mentioned are empirically verifiable, yours are just confirmed by your own biases and that is all.

You are just immune to evidence and facts about this. You just love to discriminate against public sector employees.

Quote (cambovenzi @ Sep 14 2016 12:46pm)

Ban lifeboats
the democrat solution to sinking ships

Welfare is a life boat. We aren't cutting that anytime soon

This post was edited by Skinned on Sep 14 2016 01:23pm

Voyaging

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#69

Sep 14 2016 02:24pm

Quote (cambovenzi @ Sep 14 2016 01:46pm)

Ban lifeboats
the democrat solution to sinking ships

Nice way to twist the analogy.

The idea is if we don't just use the lifeboats to save a handful of people, they can be used to save the entire ship.

Miss this part?

Quote

It's not fair to ask parents in charters to risk the moderate gains made unless real reform is undertaken in public education.

This post was edited by Voyaging on Sep 14 2016 02:29pm

NekoSama

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#70

Sep 15 2016 10:23pm

Quote (dro94 @ Sep 14 2016 06:17pm)

that's quite irrelevant, as you know the government is hardly a benevolent force. what can one teacher do if they were wrongly fired and they didn't have the thousands of $ needed to file a lawsuit against the public school board? workers need protection of their own, it is the government's job as the provider of education to balance the needs of teachers and students so that union action is prevented wherever possible

You should look up how many teachers were fired in California in 2015.

Them consider that many teachers were caught doing some sketchy shit and the only thing that happened was a change in district.

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