Okay you finally said something I can agree with. Yes, on EPs at very high level plate will be generally be better than chain because you will not be able to mitigate the full physical damage with a chain at all, so you want to get as high on physical defense as you can.

It's actually the same reason that I said this about scale and leather (in bold).



but not every fight is an EP at high lvl, and most people wanting to understand what is better, plate or chain, will not be thinking 9 wave lvl 110+ EPs. Also for most people, wearing an EE armor is not about statting pure vit and base int causing magical defense on chain to do almost the same as plate. Not all people wearing EE armor are MM tanks lol.

Consider these armors on a char with 100 vit and 50 int. When the monsters are strong enough to plow through that physical defense, then yes, the plate is mitigating more damage. But when that physical defense is enough to turn most of those melee hits into 0s, the chain is going to be doing a lot better on the magical front.

Magical ultimanium plate mail
Level Req: 55
Physical Defense: 163 to 491 (avg of 327)
Magical Defense: 0 to 60 (avg of 30)

+200% Enhanced Effect


Magical ultimanium chain mail
Level Req: 55
Physical Defense: 163 to 409 (avg of 286)
Magical Defense: 0 to 121 (avg of 60.5)

+200% Enhanced Effect

I am on phone, so there won’t be any wall of text with a lot of math, but to make it short
Plate is still superior to the reason than monster always have a melee attack and only a 5/8 chance to have an attack charm
So even if the defense gain in magic defense is higher than physical, the physical defense helps you more
That is true for any mob in the game. eps just make it more obvious

But if the only thing you do is doing whistle climbs to 81, you can literally use any armor to tank - it doesn’t even need ee
If you solo with feeder to Pally, just use an heavy or medium armor with the highest ee you can afford
Monk and ninja use stat armors and salvation
Warlock and alchemist int armors und headhunter medium

I like that you bring up why physical damage reduction is more important than magical. I’ve had to explain this to people a lot, especially when explaining scale to leather and also for padded to robe. Monsters do always have a melee attack, and a set mana pool which is actually quite large which they can use for attack casting if they have an attack charm or healing if they have a heal charm. They seem to usually cast more than they melee if they have an attack charm until they run out of mana, then they only use melee. If they have a heal charm, they only attack until healing is needed. Is 5/8 chance for cast charm confirmed? I think you’re basing that on equal chance for each element/heal type, and I think it‘a not a bad assumption, but I want to just check if you’ve tested the ratios. I wasn’t aware that it was confirmed.

But anyway, your logic is flawed because you only mitigate more overall damage by mitigating higher physical damage if there is more physical damage to take. When you take 0s from physical in plate and chain, you will reduce damage taken by more when wearing chain every time. I’m not talking about the magical defense value for mitigation being higher. I’m not even going to bother creating a scenario where int is higher than vit, since I’m the only guy who solos like that. I just mean that magical defense on chain is far superior to magical defense on plate so for all encounters where your chain soaks up all physical damage, and you only take damage from magical, you will take more damage wearing an equal plate. And when you wear ee chains and plates as opposed to stat chains and plates, most physical hits taken will be 0s.

Additionally, players using heavy armors and fighting caster EPs in solo play and can actually get stuck when relying on ee heavy armors and end up having to regen or even drop game. When my gear was lower this did happen to me on occasion. That magical defense does matter even if, on average, physical defense is most important, since you can get screwed by RNG and you can get screwed more by RNG with a plate than with a chain. Maybe it’s not a huge difference but it does matter.

This post was edited by BWConformity on Apr 9 2020 01:32pm

From what I've seen is, that most mobs always attack with melee first and then swap to their charm - if they have one.
The 5/8 is not confirmed, like everything else we "know". It is a logical way to see it as mobs use different charm types.




hard to test, if you take more than 0 damage from physical if you swap to a chain - but if you get hit by a zero physical, it also means that magic defense did not matter as you weren't damaged.
I'd see it in a way that more physical defense also means that you get more often 0 hits by physical attacks - saving the HP pool for the less frequent magical attacks.
I feel the "jack of all trades" defense does not really work in this game. Increasing the physical defense to the maximum will make you play more safe in the long run - with spikes in magical damage of course



you can get screwed by rng all the time - no matter your gear
Good Example is that we weren't able to beat a nine/eight wave ep twice last month in MM. We actually wiped twice with the best gear this game has currently. Granted we were level 112/113 when it happened one wiped was the healer being taken to the front. That is just bad luck.


If I had the choice for a tank armor, I'd go for plate and if I'd play with more int then I'd use a scale. Chain loses too much physical defense for too low magical defense gain to make it better than a scale for me.

Most things have been covered, the only thing I see that is missing is either Solo vs Group and what structure the group is based around.

For your own character in a group setting, you are always going to go to the rear and use the best stat for your armor, whether it is Robe to Plate Mail... remember, the structure of the group needs a decent healer that can heal you up, so you don't need to worry about what armor you have on ... example... you buy a Robe with 40 strength, and this is your best strength armor available... use it in the group over anything else, your healer should be able to keep you alive.

As for solo'ing, use the best stat armor you have equivalent to your character level and Tier ... I have a level 40 Scale with 47 Strength, I will practically use this solo'ing to @ least 60-65, then I change it out for a level 55 Plate mail with 50 intelligence because my solo build is Melee / Heal.


Melee Classes:
Definition: A character that deals the best POSSIBLE damage with their gear and skills
Definition: Versatile = Used by all, BUT, not restricted.

Most Common: Barbarian [] Fighter [] Rogue [] Samurai [] Paladin [] Monk [] Ninja [] Headhunter
BEST Versatile Melee Armor = Robe or Padded Robe = ALL listed above, CAN USE.
Note: Using Robe or Padded Robe means that your toons will sit in the BACK row 90% of the time (you can move your toon front/middle or back)
Second Melee Armor = Leather or Scale = Monk [] Ninja can NOT USE
Last Melee Armor option = Plate / Chain Mail = Rogue [] Monk [] Ninja [] Headhunter can NOT USE
Note: Plate/Chain & Scale Melee armor = can have toon in middle or back, dependent group and other things

Secondary Guardian (Mostly Tank/Healer)
BEST Melee Armor = Plate / Chain (Can not use any other type of armor)
Note: Guardian can only use HEAL type charms / You can sit in back or middle depending on abilities also.

Last Of All: Mage/Warlock (Uncommon, but doable)
EITHER Armor = Robe or Padded Robe (again, sitting in back row)


Melee Build Basics:
Placement In Catacomb
= Basically in the REAR (some alterations based on armor type & Tier level in conjunction with abilities may make you go middle)
Weapon
= Best Enhanced Effect
Armor
= Highest Stat to the Highest Weapon Ratio Stat... example: Sword Ratio Strength 75 / Dexterity 25
Main Charm Slot
= Highest Stat to the Highest Weapon Ratio Stat... example: Sword Ratio Strength 75 / Dexterity 25
ACC Charm Slot
= Best Enhanced Effect Heal (OPTIONAL, but comes in handy at times if solo'ing)
Stats Softcore
= Vitality 50 - 60 MINIMUM Rest goes into the Highest Weapon Ratio Stat... example: Sword Ratio Strength 75 / Dexterity 25
Stats Hardcore
= Vitality 75 MINIMUM Rest goes into the Highest Weapon Ratio Stat... example: Sword Ratio Strength 75 / Dexterity 25

Weapon Choice:
This is one of those areas where it is really dependent on you and other factors like funds, SO, I am just going to state
what I believe to be the best to use based on optimum versatility (basically 3 sets of weapons)

Set 1:
Axe = Dex or Strength [] Usable by Barb/Fighter/Rogue/Paladin/Headhunter
Dagger = Dex [] Usable by Rogue/Mage/Samurai/Monk/Ninja
Staff = Dex [] Usable by Rogue/Mage/Monk/Warlock
Note: Axe / Dagger & Staff damage increases with Dexterity, thus, when creating a pure melee build, buy DEX robe or padded robe for optimisation.
..... Rogue is also the optimum character class to use with all those weapons, also note that they start off with 60 dexterity, but only 35 vitality
..... Vitality: add 25 = 60 [lvl16] / add 40 = 75 [lvl31] / add 60 = 95 [lvl51]

Set 2:
Axe = Dex or Strength [] Usable by Barb/Fighter/Rogue/Paladin/Headhunter
Sword = Strength [] Usable by Barb/Fighter/Rogue/Samurai/Ninja
Staff = Dex [] Usable by Rogue/Mage/Monk/Warlock
Note: Once again, Rogue = Optimum character class: Strength = 30

Personal Comment:
I have seen many people starting out and asking, "What is the best weapon to use on a [insert character class here]?"
My answer revolves around that character class starting stats in conjunction with the weapons they can use! Here is a list:



The list is my personal view, not necessarilly what I or you should use... if you are going to buy up Dex gear, then the weapon choice/toon choice will change!
also, some people ask "Is it better to use Heavy Weapons?" Basically, can you deal with the slowness of the weapon? Also, can other people stand it?...
I like them to be honest, but, if you want to be effective in a group, then it maybe better for you to use 1 handed weapons that only have a 1 second delay vs 2



~@~ BASIC ABILITIES ~@~
"What abilities should I be using?"
"Variables determine certain abilities to use, but the principle is based on your toon abilities"
"How many abilities can I use?"
"Maximum is three (3), you can use either 1, 2 or 3"

Chart Provided by Stok3d:

http://i634.***/albums/uu64/Stok3d-Photos/LSAbilities-2.png

Melee / Tank Abilities [3-5 Person Group]:
Following is based on best number of monsters attacked in conjunction with % chance to charge up that ability:



Note: Paladin/Monk = You can choose either Backstab or Knockdown. IF you want just dmg on Paladin,
then you can ignore Healback and replace with Backstab, just remember only 36% = Total 118%

Note* These abilities may either Charge differently OR you may have to use a Healing Charm in your ACC slot.

Melee / Tank Abilities [1-2 Person Group]:
This section revolves more around solo'ing or 2 person group, only difference in the speed of the climb, is the quality of the gear, if
killing speed is good, then less healing is required, BUT, healing can be required to reduce your regen times and other factors.

There can be a big difference here with stat placement based on the quality of your equipment.

Poor to Slightly Above Average Equipment:

Stats Softcore
= Vitality 75 MINIMUM Rest goes into the Highest Weapon Ratio Stat... example: Sword Ratio Strength 75 / Dexterity 25
Stats Hardcore
= Vitality 95 MINIMUM Rest goes into the Highest Weapon Ratio Stat... example: Sword Ratio Strength 75 / Dexterity 25

Above Average to Great Equipment:

Stats Softcore
= Vitality 60 MINIMUM Rest goes into the Highest Weapon Ratio Stat... example: Sword Ratio Strength 75 / Dexterity 25
Stats Hardcore
= Vitality 75 MINIMUM Rest goes into the Highest Weapon Ratio Stat... example: Sword Ratio Strength 75 / Dexterity 25

Basic Solo Tank Abilities:
Most Common Tank:
... Barb, Fighter & Rogue: 2 Main Abilities = Powerstrike / Knockdown (Maybe 3rd option for Fighter & Barb: Retribution)
... Guardian: 3 Abilities = Powerstrike / Knockdown & Salvation (2 base points in Salvation)
... Samurai: 3 Abilities = TwoHitBack / Powerstrike & Retribution (or Salvation)
... Paladin: 2 Abilities = Powerstrike / Healback & Revenge (2 base points in Revenge)
... Headhunter: 3 Abilities = Wildswing / Slapdash / TwoHitBack

Uncommon Tank: (but achievable with some good effect)
Note: Stat wise, these two classes are better melee/healers than Monk & Ninja, based on Int/Dex ratios.
... Mage: 2 Abilities = Salvation / Retribution
... Monk: 3 Abilities = TwoHitBack / Doublestrike / Salvation
... Ninja: 3 Abilities = Jumpattack / TwoHitBack / Salvation
... Warlock: 2 Abilities = TwoHitBack / Salvation
End Note: These abilities have not changed much, that is because they are robed characters and will take dmg more often than Medium/Heavy Armor weilders.


Basic Solo Melee Abilities:
NOTE: When you are NOT using Heal Mastery items, you DO need <=70% ee on your heal charms and <=50 base intelligence.
Even when using Salvation (based on sustainability and less regen time if you do NOT have shrines or want to buy them)

Most Common Melee:
... Barb, Rogue & Guardian: 2 Main Abilities = Retribution / Salvation (with Barb/Guardian, you can also choose a 3rd option: Powerstrike)
... Fighter: 3 Abilities = Retribution / Salvation & Powerstrike
... Samurai: 3 Abilities = TwoHitBack / Retribution & Salvation
... Paladin: 2 Abilities = TwoHitBack / Salvation (Healback when using EE armor, and also choose 3rd ability Powerstrike)
... Monk: 3 Abilities = TwoHitBack / Doublestrike / Salvation
... Ninja: 3 Abilities = Jumpattack / TwoHitBack / Salvation
... Headhunter: 3 Abilities = Wildswing / Slapdash / TwoHitBack
... ... Note: Wildswing / Slapdash attacks a RANDOM amount of monsters on screen... from 1-9 (thanks to Smokey for PM'ing this info)

Uncommon Melee: (but achievable with some good effect)
Note: Stat wise, these two classes are better melee/healers than Monk & Ninja, based on Int/Dex ratios.
... Mage: 2 Abilities = Salvation / Retribution
... Warlock: 2 Abilities = TwoHitBack / Salvation

Heavy Weapon Users ONLY (excluding Quick Draw)
The only abilities that you require, are the ones that charge up by "HIT TAKEN".
IMPORTANT: Feeder (Retribution/Salvation) / Samurai + (TwoHitBack/Salvation) OR... IF your weapon is =< than 75% ee... USE Retribution instead of TwoHitBack.
Reason: Simple, there is a 100-150% faster chance to charge up those abilities (vs 2-3 monsters) and 50% faster chance vs 1 monster
compared to "Charges with Weapon" abilities.

Q: Why use Powerstrike?
A: Great Damage output, very good vs Strong Evil Presence, and if using weapons with less than 75% enhanced effect

Q: Why use Retribution?
A: Again, same as powerstrike, also, it has a faster chance to charge up when facing more than 1 monster.

Q: Why use Salvation? / Why use Salvation over Healback after passing Paladin?
A: This is more of a personal comment based on solo'ing 98% of the time with junk-average gear.
... Salvation can be used on a person (front/middle or back), Healback (Back row only), also when using stat armor, you
... take more hits, so you are charging up effectively at the same rate, IF not faster vs 2+ monsters. As a Paladin, I would
... still use Salvation UNLESS I am using >= 75% ee armor, then I will use Healback.