After thinking about why I care about this ratio so much, I’ve decided that you’re right PowerTripped.

Actually, I considered “best ee” armor to mean best tanking armor, but this doesn’t necessarily need to be so... and even if so, it’s not really required that what is going to be most effective be labeled best, much like how crit and other side mods will be ignored on “best stat” items...

In any case, even if I don’t think a 90 ee 50 vit 50 int scale will be a more effective tank armor than 175 ee scale, I’m okay with the 90 ee 50 vit 50 Int scale being rated as a better ee scale and honestly I’d rather have the 90 ee 50 vit 50 int one, so I’m good with the old ratings as long as we agree.

We still need values for the padded, but I will be fine with whatever you guys decide. Even if int doesn’t really increase tanking effectiveness much on an ee padded robe, I’m a big fan of int side mods so I won’t mind if it gets a good ratio

I made a tweak to your numbers:

Robe:
1 Vitality = 0.1 EE, 1 Intelligence = 0.9 EE <-- Included Robe

Padded Robe:
1 Vitality = 0.2 EE, 1 Intelligence = 0.8 EE <-- You had this back-to-front

Leather:
1 Vitality = 0.7 EE, 1 Intelligence = 0.3 EE <-- Has higher magical resistance I believe compared to Scale

Scale:
1 Vitality = 0.75 EE, 1 Intelligence = 0.2.5 EE <-- Has higher physical resistance compared to Leather I believe.

Chain mail:
1 Vitality = 0.8 EE, 1 Intelligence = 0.2 EE

Plate mail:
1 Vitality = 0.9 EE, 1 Intelligence = 0.1 EE

EDIT: Forgot to mention that an item with 0 minimum defense either physical or magical, stats and enhance effect don't change it at all. Correct me if I am wrong as I may not have noticed it. If you do not know what I mean, look at the physical defense of a robe, it will say something like 0 - 5, now if you add 10 Vitality, or even 10% Enhanced Effect, it will only change the maximum defense. i.e. 0 - 7 Physical defense (on the robe)

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Dec 12 2018 07:08pm

the question is, is there any point of having additional vita to boost the defense of say a plate mail once it reaches 55?

Is 250 EE on a 55 plate enough to basically block all physical damage?
If that's the case having 50 int on it would be more useful than 50 vita.

Same with a robe, although every caster would pay an arm and a leg for 250ee with 60 int lol.

From the theoretical standpoint of just damage block figures, then just use the figures ls is built in with. It's simple and makes sense.

This post was edited by mclarke on Dec 13 2018 11:13am

I still stand by what I said in my last post and my evaluation purely for general defense mechanics. What makes for the best defense in LS is not total block values but block values that result in lowest overall damage taken. That puts a different value on the same amount of physical and magical defense at each level of current physical and magical defense.

For the record, I have used a 250 ee lvl 55 plate with 100+ vit, exploring to 101 solo (max spawn 3 EPs) and you will take damage from physical crits even before level 71 and definitely a lot of non-crit physical damage from almost every monster at 90+. Most hits dealt are physical, since casters (monsters with attack charms) will often use physical attacks, while physical-only attackers (monsters with heal charms) can only use physical attacks. This is why a high ee plate is still a viable tanking option, yet a "robe" is useless for tanking. Otherwise they are analogous armor types with base physical and magical defenses swapped.



So, I didn't have the value for padded robe back-to-front, because the primary use of ee padded robe (why it isn't omitted from the list altogether) is for use on monk, ninja, especially for solo climbs, or when there is no other more useful tank class available for a whistle climb. The goal of such a padded robe, and why it must be padded and not "robe" is because it needs as much physical defense as possible while still being usable on cloth-only classes. Padded physical defense is exactly double "robe" physical defense, while "robe" magical defense is only ~14% higher than padded. Thus both will have more than adequate magical defense, but will really take a lot of damage from physical hits. Vitality will contribute only a small number of defense compared to int, but will result in much greater damage reduction and thus is definitely more important on a padded robe than int.

I dunno what to do with "robe" though... because there is no reason to wear a robe if your goal is to mitigate physical damage at all. You'll get rekt, but you'll probably stack magical defense just to die while looking at a big number if you're using it to be the best in-game... otherwise a 300 ee "robe" would just be a slightly higher magical defense version of a 100 ee padded...

Also, leather and scale are balanced armor types made to defend well against both physical and magical damage. Scale does have higher base physical defense while leather has higher base magical defense (their defense are swapped, much like plate and robe or chain and padded, but to a much smaller degree since they are next to each other on the spectrum). As such, you can increase total defense more by adding vit to a scale or int to a leather, as you suggested... however, the overall benefit will be greater when adding to a lower defense, since most of the damage taken will come from the type of attack the armor is weaker against. Overall, increasing vit is most important for upgrading defense because most attacks are physical and so you'll mitigate more damage when boosting that defense type.

In any case... all of this is just to elaborate on best defense... whereas:



I'm still thinking this for the "best items."

This post was edited by BWConformity on Dec 13 2018 12:16pm

My reply is to dumb it down, overthinking it gives too many options.

The BEST defense armor (for each type) is determined by a number of factors.
1. Highest Enhanced Effect
2. As much Intelligence (magical defense) &/or Vitality (physical defense)
3. Physical &/or Magical Damage REDUCTION
4. Critical Flux [Reduce % chance of receiving a critical hit]
5. Parry [Physical defense only]

Now, as for the order of preference, we all acknowledge that Enhanced Effect is the prime factor and the others are add ons.
The addition of Intelligence and Vitality is good, so this would be secondary, however, I believe that I have listed the right
order.

If you want to find out how much added Int or Vit increases defense for each type of armor, then it is easy as long as you are
willing to level up WITHOUT adding stats to a Barbarian, you would have to view each WHITE armor defense while in your inventory
before putting it on, take a note of each added stat point... NOTE: you may want to test this with different Tiers at the same time,
this is a bit tedious interchanging items per added point. Oh, I used to do this way back for weapons, finding the correct amount
of added str/dex to increase damage... it was interesting to see that 5-7 stat added gave minimal increase, this may have changed
of course.

End Note: The ratio of Physical &/or Magical attacking monsters are equal, the reason why I state this is because I notice DUAL
attack type monsters (Physical/Cast) quite frequently when I was playing.

You don’t need to test the defenses... we can calculate them.

Also, vit and Int are directly calculated into physical and magical defenses whereas contribution from the other side mods are not... but I do agree that those will matter during gameplay.

As for ratio of physical / magical, it’s very simple, and painfully obvious that the ratio is not equal:

Monsters come either equipped with a heal charm or an attack charm. Those that come with a heal charm can only do physical attacks, because they don’t have an attack charm equipped. Those with an attack charm equipped cannot heal because they don’t have a heal charm equipped. But monsters with an attack charm equipped do not always cast, they will alternate between magical attacks with their attack charm and physical attacks. Monsters with a heal charm equipped will always use physical attacks. This is the primary reason why physical defense is much more important than magical defense, and also why the ratio is not 50/50 lol

You say you can calculate it... so how much minimum Vitality would you need to increase the physical defense of each type of armor OR Intelligence for magical defense of each type of armor and by how much?
How much Vitality or Intelligence increases the MAX defense value of each armor type that has a 0 MIN defense?

How can you say it is simple and obvious that the ratio of physical / magical monsters when they are random? You could do 100-10,000 runs and record every action the monsters does, but, it is all random, thus the basic (optimum word: BASIC) conclusion is 50/50.

1 example is say that 4 out of 8 monsters DUAL attack and the other 4 Heal/Attack. Now, the 4 Dual monsters cast and the other 4 attack (50/50), now you kill off 4 Dual & 2 Heal/Attack and damage the remaining 2, now those remaining 2 heal themselves from the damage and then your group kills the remaining 2... basically it still adds up to 50/50 ratio. NOTE: These change of course, but, you could do 100-10,000 runs with many variables, but, the average is 50/50 all round, there is NO definitive answer, nor can we prove otherwise. I stand by my reasoning based on random spawning.

We can calculate physical and magical defenses using the base stats from the portal:
https://ladderslasher.d2jsp.org/index.php?g=10

All base values shown are with 5 vit and 5 int (and of course 0 enhanced effect).
The formula to calculate physical defense is then: (Base)[1 + (current vit - 5)/100][1 + (enhanced effect/100)]
And the formula to calculate magical defense is: (Base)[1 + (current int - 5)/100][1 + (enhanced effect/100)]

Here's a series of examples using 150 ee lvl 55 armors on a character with 60 vit and 25 int:
(Note that all decimals are rounded down for final values in LS)

150 EE XIV Robe
Physical defense min (0)(1.55)(2.5) = 0
Physical defense max (14)(1.55)(2.5) = 54.25 = 54
Magical defense min (28)(1.2)(2.5) = 84
Magical defense max (84)(1.2)(2.5) = 252
Physical defense: 0 - 54
Magical defense: 84 - 252
Total numerical defense value: 390

150 EE XIV Padded Robe
Physical defense min (0)(1.55)(2.5) = 0
Physical defense max (28)(1.55)(2.5) = 108.5 = 108
Magical defense min (28)(1.2)(2.5) = 84
Magical defense max (70)(1.2)(2.5) = 210
Physical defense: 0 - 108
Magical defense: 84 - 210
Total numerical defense value: 402

150 EE XIV Leather
Physical defense min (14)(1.55)(2.5) = 54.25 = 54
Physical defense max (42)(1.55)(2.5) = 162.75 = 162
Magical defense min (14)(1.2)(2.5) = 42
Magical defense max (56)(1.2)(2.5) = 168
Physical defense: 54 - 162
Magical defense: 42 - 168
Total numerical defense value: 426

150 EE XIV Scale
Physical defense min (14)(1.55)(2.5) = 54.25 = 54
Physical defense max (56)(1.55)(2.5) = 217
Magical defense min (14)(1.2)(2.5) = 42
Magical defense max (42)(1.2)(2.5) = 126
Physical defense: 54 - 217
Magical defense: 42 - 126
Total numerical defense value: 439

150 EE XIV Chain
Physical defense min (28)(1.55)(2.5) = 108.5 = 108
Physical defense max (70)(1.55)(2.5) = 271.25 = 271
Magical defense min (0)(1.2)(2.5) = 0
Magical defense max (28)(1.2)(2.5) = 84
Physical defense: 108 - 271
Magical defense: 0 - 84
Total numerical defense value: 463

150 EE XIV Plate
Physical defense min (28)(1.55)(2.5) = 108.5 = 108
Physical defense max (84)(1.55)(2.5) = 325.5 = 325
Magical defense min (0)(1.2)(2.5) = 0
Magical defense max (14)(1.2)(2.5) = 42
Physical defense: 108 - 325
Magical defense: 0 - 42
Total numerical defense value: 475

With calculations like this, you can figure out how much vit or int will produce an equivalent increase to a given amount of EE for a given armor type and level with given base stats. With each variable you change, so to do the factors that change the others. I also added total numerical defense values so you can get an idea of how the total defense number increases are not really important when thinking about how to mitigate the most damage. Let's do a couple of simple examples to see vit or int equivalency with ee:

Take the 60 base vit, 25 base int, and the 150 ee XIV scale:

150 EE XIV Scale
Physical defense min (14)(1.55)(2.5) = 54.25 = 54
Physical defense max (56)(1.55)(2.5) = 217
Magical defense min (14)(1.2)(2.5) = 42
Magical defense max (42)(1.2)(2.5) = 126
Physical defense: 54 - 217
Magical defense: 42 - 126
Total numerical defense value: 439

Now I want to see how much vit I would need on a 90 ee lvl 55 scale to have the same physical defense as on the 150 ee 55 scale (or how much I'd have to stat, same thing):
56(?)(1.9) = 217
? = 2.04 which is 109 vit, up from 60
109 - 60 = 49 vit (this is the needed added vit given our current stats to yield 60 enhanced effect worth of physical defense to the 90 ee 55 scale; note that this does not increase magical defense at all)

But why does this only have to apply to a scale or XIV? The truth it... it doesn't. This will apply to all armor types. At a given current vit and ee value, adding the same amount of vit will be equivalent to increasing the physical ee of any armor type the same amount. And yep, that also means that at a given current int and ee value, adding the same amount of int will be equivalent to increasing the magical ee of any armor type the same amount.

Let's do a magical defense example using the same values only this time for int, so we'll use a 90 ee leather and 60 int:

150 EE XIV Leather
Magical defense min (14)(1.55)(2.5) = 54.25 = 54
Magical defense max (56)(1.55)(2.5) = 217

90 EE XIV Leather
Magical defense min (14)(1.55)(1.9) = 41.23 = 41
Magical defense max (56)(1.55)(1.9) = 164.92 = 164

Since these numbers are all the same, let's just try adding 49 int (the same amount of vit we added to the 90 ee scale to add 60 ee worth of physical defense)
90 EE 49 int XIV Leather
Magical defense min (14)(2.04)(1.9) = 54.264 = 54
Magical defense max (56)(2.04)(1.9) = 217.056 = 217

Check that out, it's the same!

So yep, now we know 1 of the breakpoints, for a 90 ee armor with 60 base defense stat, adding 49 of the defense stat is the same as adding 60 ee.

If you wanted to just make an exact equivalency for defense between vit/int and ee at this breakpoint, it would be true that these two armors will have equal defense:

Magical Any Armor Any Lvl
+150% Enhanced Effect

and

Mystical Any Armor Any Lvl
+90% Enhanced Effect
+49 Vitality
+49 Intelligence

And then, yeah... there are many reasons why we know that physical attacks and magical attacks are not 50/50 (in fact not even close) in LS in general. Of course, you can run into statistically anomalous sections of catacombs where there are just more casters than average, or you can run maps with higher compositions of casters than normal, but generally speaking, you can see how obvious it is if you just watch how much damage you take in a "robe" compared to a plate. Their bases are equivalent, with physical and magical damage reductions reversed, but even if you run the robe with 100 vit and 100 int and you run the plate with 100 vit and 5 int, you will still take far more damage using the robe as you walk through catacombs.

In your example, say 50% of monsters are casters and 50% of monsters are physical attackers...
And since casters also use physical attacks (they are hybrids as you say)
Then the ratio of physical to magical attacks is definitely more than 50/50, because some of the 50% of attacks that come from casters will be physical too.

What if the odds of physical and magical attacks from casters were 50/50 too (random as you say).
Then the ratio would be 75 / 25 physical / magical.

But even if casters attack with physical 1 time out of 5, the ratio is already 60 / 40

Your calculations are correct based on your way to formulate it, BUT, if you want to calculate defense values USING the Portal that you posted, then it is better to use this:
[Base x 0.95] [1+ (Int / 100)] [1+ (XX%ee / 100)]
[Base x 0.95] [1+ (Vit / 100)] [1+ (XX%ee / 100)]
Note: This alters the defense. Which calculation is correct? You will see the difference with the following:

Your Formula

150 EE XIV Chain
Physical defense min (28)(1.55)(2.5) = 108.5 = 108
Physical defense max (70)(1.55)(2.5) = 271.25 = 271
Magical defense min (0)(1.2)(2.5) = 0
Magical defense max (28)(1.2)(2.5) = 84
Physical defense: 108 - 271
Magical defense: 0 - 84
Total numerical defense value: 463

Alternate Formula: Using the Markeplace and viewing the TRUE defense from my character profile marketplace, I was able to use full stat calculation instead of the -5 in yours. How did you come to use -5 in the stat part of your formula?

ultimanium chain mail
Level Req: 55
Physical Defense: 26 to 66
Magical Defense: 0 to 26

On Market For: 19.98 fg
Ends in: 6 days

150 EE XIV Chain
Physical defense min (26)(1.60)(2.5) = 104
Physical defense max (66)(1.60)(2.5) = 264
Magical defense min (0)(1.25)(2.5) = 0
Magical defense max (26)(1.25)(2.5) = 81.25 (81)
Physical defense: 104 - 264
Magical defense: 0 - 81
______________

As for the monster spawn, you should re read my previous post, neither of us can prove each other wrong, some games may have 90/10 ratio and others might have 10/90 ratio, also, you have to take in effect the ratio of what attack form a Dual monster (phys/cast) would use, and again, it can be either 90/10 or 10/90... it is random... I use Heavy armors solo'ing, when I take damage (a lot), I notice that it is from casters, and the only thing not making me regen as often is because I only use Salvation as an ability... of course may change if I get a Warlock.

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Dec 14 2018 09:53pm

Could not EDIT previous post:

NOTE: using the formula I post at the start, you will see that the "rounding" factor changes defense value also.
28 x 0.95 = 26.6 (1.60) (2.5) = 106.40
70 x 0.95 = 66.5 (1.60) (2.5) = 266
28 x 0.95 = 26.6 (1.25) (2.5) = 23.125
Physical defense: 106 - 266
Magical defense: 0 - 83

EDIT: I also believe this also applies with all CHARMS and Intelligence values (I was reading a debate between you and another about Acc effect and amount of Int to counter the -25%).

This post was edited by izParagonzi on Dec 14 2018 10:13pm