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Sep 23 2018 09:39am
Quote (Condemn @ Sep 23 2018 06:49am)

It's relaxing:


fixd for accuracy
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Sep 23 2018 02:11pm
Quote (Condemn @ Sep 23 2018 10:49am)
the 3 posters above me are shamefully misinformed, especially neptunus

I would caution others, especially those who are new here, to disregard whatever they post in the future

Mortality:

-men who sauna 4-7 times a week 48% less likely to die of heart related causes, and less likely to die of all causes ( https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2130724 ), likely mediated by an increase in heatshock proteins, or some other form of hormetic response to the stress of high temperatures

Detoxification:

-the skin is widely accepted to be an organ of detoxification via sweating, and people who sauna more often sweat more easily

-recommendation to increase exercise and sweating to enhance excretion of bioaccumulating possible disease causing toxicants ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22315626/ ), of which we are known to be exposed to hundreds of before we even leave the womb ( https://www.ewg.org/research/body-burden-pollution-newborns#.W6djKM4za00 )

-various heavy metals are known to be excreted in sweat, including arsenic and mercury ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312275/ ) ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057782/ )

-law enforcement officers exposed to amphetamiines normalise faster with sauna therapy ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573677/ )

Growth hormones:

-142% increase in growth hormone seen with use of finnish style saunas ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/999213 )

-2 to 5 fold increase in grwth hormone, 4 fold increase in growth hormone releasing hormone ( https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1016/S0002-9343(00)00671-9 page 122 )

-reduction of muscle wastage in immobile rats ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15761186 , https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10642402 )

endorphins:

-hyperthermia and therefore sauna use is known to cause an increase in beta endorphin levels ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8061252 ) ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3218898 ) ( https://sci-hub.tw/10.1055/s-2007-1013648 )

-this increase in beta endorphins seen in the days following sauna use is suspected to be the mechanism behind the reduction in depression seen in cancer patients undergoing "whole body hyperthermia therapy" ( https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.3109/02656739209021785 )

-saunas have been used with effect to reduce pain seen in various disease states, including fibromyalgia ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21742283 ), and rheumatoid arthritis ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4719492/ )

It's relaxing:
-I can personally attest to this, which is more valuable than any dumb scientifical study



Although it definitely has its pros, you don’t primarily depend on your skin for detoxing... Let your kidneys and liver do work.

https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/does-sweating-release-toxins

This post was edited by ozzyarmy3 on Sep 23 2018 02:26pm
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Sep 23 2018 06:08pm
1. that opinion piece needs citations

2. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bn/2015/620143/

Quote
Juxtaposed alongside the ongoing rise in the incidence and prevalence of dementia, is the surge of recent research confirming widespread exposure and bioaccumulation of chemical toxicants. Evidence from sources such as the Centers for Disease Control reveals that most people have accrued varying degrees of assorted toxic pollutants including heavy metals, flame retardants, and pesticide residues within their bodies. It has been well established that many of these toxicants have neurodegenerative as well as neurodevelopmental impact as a result of various pathophysiologic mechanisms including neuronal mitochondrial toxicity and disruption of neurotransmitter regulation.


clearly the liver and kidneys are not sufficient, so the unfounded notion that it's a good idea to just "let them do their work" should be disregarded from here out

moreover to ignore a convenient way evolution designed to mobilise and excrete fat soluble toxins just becuse some thot forgot to fill up on fluids is... dumb to say the least
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Sep 23 2018 07:24pm
Quote (Condemn @ Sep 23 2018 12:49pm)
the 3 posters above me are shamefully misinformed, especially neptunus

I would caution others, especially those who are new here, to disregard whatever they post in the future

Mortality:

-men who sauna 4-7 times a week 48% less likely to die of heart related causes, and less likely to die of all causes ( https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2130724 ), likely mediated by an increase in heatshock proteins, or some other form of hormetic response to the stress of high temperatures

Detoxification:

-the skin is widely accepted to be an organ of detoxification via sweating, and people who sauna more often sweat more easily

-recommendation to increase exercise and sweating to enhance excretion of bioaccumulating possible disease causing toxicants ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22315626/ ), of which we are known to be exposed to hundreds of before we even leave the womb ( https://www.ewg.org/research/body-burden-pollution-newborns#.W6djKM4za00 )

-various heavy metals are known to be excreted in sweat, including arsenic and mercury ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312275/ ) ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057782/ )

-law enforcement officers exposed to amphetamiines normalise faster with sauna therapy ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573677/ )

Growth hormones:

-142% increase in growth hormone seen with use of finnish style saunas ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/999213 )

-2 to 5 fold increase in grwth hormone, 4 fold increase in growth hormone releasing hormone ( https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1016/S0002-9343(00)00671-9 page 122 )

-reduction of muscle wastage in immobile rats ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15761186 , https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10642402 )

endorphins:

-hyperthermia and therefore sauna use is known to cause an increase in beta endorphin levels ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8061252 ) ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3218898 ) ( https://sci-hub.tw/10.1055/s-2007-1013648 )

-this increase in beta endorphins seen in the days following sauna use is suspected to be the mechanism behind the reduction in depression seen in cancer patients undergoing "whole body hyperthermia therapy" ( https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.3109/02656739209021785 )

-saunas have been used with effect to reduce pain seen in various disease states, including fibromyalgia ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21742283 ), and rheumatoid arthritis ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4719492/ )

It's relaxing:
-I can personally attest to this, which is more valuable than any dumb scientifical study


It's cool that you at least use real sources, but single studies aren't enough to prove your point in all of the cases. The growth hormone part is poorly backed, there's too little articles, one of them was from the year 1976. The other thing is that nowhere in the other article does it mention the effect of a temporary 2-5 fold GH increase. We don't see acromegalic people just because they spend a lot of time in the sauna. What's the clinical relevance of the increased GH levels?

The heavy metal thingy was interesting, although i question it's clinical relevance. It was also a review on articles whose quality wasn't reported. Most of the time you remove toxins by pissing them. The most important question was unanswered: did this increased excretion of heavy metals improve the patients clinically so that it gets the merit of a detoxifier? We're not talking of the symptoms of acute poisoning, but of a vague, chronic mixed heavy metal exposure. We don't even know what it does and even the definition isn't clear cut.

The replication rate of the results seems poor to me if that's all you have. A lot of the articles said something like "more research needs to be done" which means they are initial findings awaiting to be replicated. That's not the same as a scientific fact, a lot of papers that get published are forgotten afterwards because of failures to replicate their results. I don't have the time to search Pubmed for the replications either.

Quote (Condemn @ Sep 24 2018 02:08am)
1. that opinion piece needs citations

2. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bn/2015/620143/



clearly the liver and kidneys are not sufficient, so the unfounded notion that it's a good idea to just "let them do their work" should be disregarded from here out

moreover to ignore a convenient way evolution designed to mobilise and excrete fat soluble toxins just becuse some thot forgot to fill up on fluids is... dumb to say the least


Hindawi is a suspicious publisher. I took a look at the article and it had the classic "doctors dont treat the cause but the symptom" type of conspiracist fallacy. I did a little more research and foubd out that it's considered to be a somewhat predatory publisher.

This post was edited by Neptunus on Sep 23 2018 07:39pm
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Sep 23 2018 07:56pm
Quote
The heavy metal thingy was interesting, although i question it's clinical relevance. It was also a review on articles whose quality wasn't reported. Most of the time you remove toxins by pissing them. The most important question was unanswered: did this increased excretion of heavy metals improve the patients clinically so that it gets the merit of a detoxifier? We're not talking of the symptoms of acute poisoning, but of a vague, chronic mixed heavy metal exposure. We don't even know what it does and even the definition isn't clear cut.


detoxification by definition the process of removing toxic substances from your body, don't twist the definition to make it sound like you were right

you can feel free to wait untill an honest attempt is made to research how the slew of carcinogens, endocrine disruptors and neurotoxins we live in is affecting us and how sweating would reduce these effects, all the while chronic disease rates rise and fertility rates fall, but you'd be waiting untill you die

Quote (Neptunus @ Sep 24 2018 11:24am)
Hindawi is a suspicious publisher. I took a look at the article and it had the classic "doctors dont treat the cause but the symptom" type of conspiracist fallacy. I did a little more research and foubd out that it's considered to be a somewhat predatory publisher.


fyi ignoring something just because it sounds conspiracy-y is a fallacy, and treating the symptoms is also exactly what medicine does in many chronic diseases so I don't see why you would use that assertion as a way to pick holes at those researching potential causes

This post was edited by Condemn on Sep 23 2018 08:01pm
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Sep 24 2018 08:07am
Quote (Condemn @ Sep 24 2018 03:56am)
detoxification by definition the process of removing toxic substances from your body, don't twist the definition to make it sound like you were right

you can feel free to wait untill an honest attempt is made to research how the slew of carcinogens, endocrine disruptors and neurotoxins we live in is affecting us and how sweating would reduce these effects, all the while chronic disease rates rise and fertility rates fall, but you'd be waiting untill you die



fyi ignoring something just because it sounds conspiracy-y is a fallacy, and treating the symptoms is also exactly what medicine does in many chronic diseases so I don't see why you would use that assertion as a way to pick holes at those researching potential causes


I'm skeptical. Science is all about skepticism and falsification. I did give credit to the heavy metal thing but science isn't just 1-3 studies that aren't replications of each other and i don't have the time to proof-read the articles to be sure of their validity. If there will be more evidence, then it's warmly welcome by me or by anyone in the scientific community. You yourself could research that if youre in the field, i think it's an interesting premise.

However, concerning GH i'm still adamant that 1-2 studies one of which is from the year 1976 isn't exactly enough evidence for postulating the claim that there's a clinically relevant increase in GH production

Concerning Hindawi, it sounding conspiracyish and "funny" is what triggered my curiosity, so i googled a bit and found out that it's indeed been criticized and is listed as a potential predatory publisher, so i didn't commit a fallacy. I'm doing my own medical research and ive learned a little about publishing papers. I think i'm being quite reasonable here.
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Sep 24 2018 10:47am
Quote (Neptunus @ Sep 24 2018 02:07pm)
I'm skeptical. Science is all about skepticism and falsification. I did give credit to the heavy metal thing but science isn't just 1-3 studies that aren't replications of each other and i don't have the time to proof-read the articles to be sure of their validity. If there will be more evidence, then it's warmly welcome by me or by anyone in the scientific community. You yourself could research that if youre in the field, i think it's an interesting premise.

However, concerning GH i'm still adamant that 1-2 studies one of which is from the year 1976 isn't exactly enough evidence for postulating the claim that there's a clinically relevant increase in GH production

Concerning Hindawi, it sounding conspiracyish and "funny" is what triggered my curiosity, so i googled a bit and found out that it's indeed been criticized and is listed as a potential predatory publisher, so i didn't commit a fallacy. I'm doing my own medical research and ive learned a little about publishing papers. I think i'm being quite reasonable here.


You're completely right. Siting a single study and speaking of it as if it's the truth isn't how we should be going about things.. In this day & age, you could probably find a seemingly genuine source to back up any claim. I'm sure you'd be able to fish out a research-article stating that protein is irrelevant for muscle-gain and/or another stating that and upper/body-split is the superior split -> I'd be careful siting those articles and state "This is how it is because I found an article that said so.. Come at me!". Not saying Condemn is wrong, by any means (didn't care to read through it all) - I'm just saying that the sentence below hits the nail on the head.

"Science is all about skepticism and falsification. Science isn't just 1-3 studies that aren't replications of each other"
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Sep 24 2018 10:59am
Do nosebeers before to maximize Zyzz gains
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Sep 24 2018 06:39pm
Quote (Neptunus @ Sep 25 2018 12:07am)
I'm skeptical. Science is all about skepticism and falsification. I did give credit to the heavy metal thing but science isn't just 1-3 studies that aren't replications of each other and i don't have the time to proof-read the articles to be sure of their validity. If there will be more evidence, then it's warmly welcome by me or by anyone in the scientific community. You yourself could research that if youre in the field, i think it's an interesting premise.

However, concerning GH i'm still adamant that 1-2 studies one of which is from the year 1976 isn't exactly enough evidence for postulating the claim that there's a clinically relevant increase in GH production

Concerning Hindawi, it sounding conspiracyish and "funny" is what triggered my curiosity, so i googled a bit and found out that it's indeed been criticized and is listed as a potential predatory publisher, so i didn't commit a fallacy. I'm doing my own medical research and ive learned a little about publishing papers. I think i'm being quite reasonable here.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4334623/

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271910345_Toxicant_Exposure_and_Bioaccumulation_A_Common_and_Potentially_Reversible_Cause_of_Cognitive_Dysfunction_and_Dementia

are pubmed and research gate "predatory" publishers?
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Sep 24 2018 07:43pm
Quote (Condemn @ 23 Sep 2018 06:49)
the 3 posters above me are shamefully misinformed, especially neptunus

I would caution others, especially those who are new here, to disregard whatever they post in the future

Mortality:

-men who sauna 4-7 times a week 48% less likely to die of heart related causes, and less likely to die of all causes ( https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2130724 ), likely mediated by an increase in heatshock proteins, or some other form of hormetic response to the stress of high temperatures

Detoxification:

-the skin is widely accepted to be an organ of detoxification via sweating, and people who sauna more often sweat more easily

-recommendation to increase exercise and sweating to enhance excretion of bioaccumulating possible disease causing toxicants ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22315626/ ), of which we are known to be exposed to hundreds of before we even leave the womb ( https://www.ewg.org/research/body-burden-pollution-newborns#.W6djKM4za00 )

-various heavy metals are known to be excreted in sweat, including arsenic and mercury ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312275/ ) ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21057782/ )

-law enforcement officers exposed to amphetamiines normalise faster with sauna therapy ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573677/ )

Growth hormones:

-142% increase in growth hormone seen with use of finnish style saunas ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/999213 )

-2 to 5 fold increase in grwth hormone, 4 fold increase in growth hormone releasing hormone ( https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1016/S0002-9343(00)00671-9 page 122 )

-reduction of muscle wastage in immobile rats ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15761186 , https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10642402 )

endorphins:

-hyperthermia and therefore sauna use is known to cause an increase in beta endorphin levels ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8061252 ) ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3218898 ) ( https://sci-hub.tw/10.1055/s-2007-1013648 )

-this increase in beta endorphins seen in the days following sauna use is suspected to be the mechanism behind the reduction in depression seen in cancer patients undergoing "whole body hyperthermia therapy" ( https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.3109/02656739209021785 )

-saunas have been used with effect to reduce pain seen in various disease states, including fibromyalgia ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21742283 ), and rheumatoid arthritis ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4719492/ )

It's relaxing:
-I can personally attest to this, which is more valuable than any dumb scientifical study


Thank you for the constructive and relevant post. Appreciate it.
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