I guess I need to break out math for this.

Without berserker
So let's say you have CHC of 60 base(with battle rage to make it easy), and you have 10 enemies around you.

With ITF, you end up with with 70 percent crit, that mean you have a chance to crit 1 more person in the group.

With bloodshed -> you crit 6 of them, creating 20 percent damage (120% weapon damage in the area), you also create this with charge or leap, bringing the effective hp of mobs down by at quite a bit, then with a bloodbath rend, it's a guarenteed kill.

I think that low damage output, with high CHC, bloodshed is better.

If you have high damage, you don't need the area damage.

Personally, I've gone between the two, I have less mobs milling around at the end of a run with bloodshed.

I think on your budget barbs that have high CHC, I would argue that you would be better with BS.

Manner cookie, do you know for sure that bloodbath bleeding that's applied procs on the persons ruthless? I don't think it does, but can't find the information.

i just did the same math(calculating it for 10enemies or 50 etc), but imho mc is right that ITF > BS all the time:

maybe you remember a barb called "baudusau", he created a max crit rend barb with high critdmg, in order to onehit the trashmobs(fields farm route/the dungeon there) and always be moving.

so in this case- imho we dont need BS if we have enough crit and its also about killing speed- so with max crit for example(theory), you will always be faster(because the critdmg is also over 200% and so on)

edit:

btw another question:

does anyone have a suggestion for barb and 70 endgamefarming? we wont have any ll and LoH is also nerfed. can barbs still be fastest chars for paragon farming(solo)?

This post was edited by atum84 on Mar 8 2014 01:29pm

I think it's overkill with berserk because the area affect on weapon damage is 300,crit of 60 or 70% doesn't make a big difference.

The issue is with the build and how it's done, movement is really achieved by sprint and leap for me, those two proc out the 20% damage for me and bring their health down to near 100% kill rate with rend/bb.

if I was just running and rending, I would agree I want just crits, but since mobs are primed with sprint and leap, 20% area damage tends to bring all the mobs down quite a bit.

My paper DPS in game is 280, and I also don't think the secondary invisible rend on bloodbath procs with 30% more damage with ruthless if the mob is under 40%.

The problem with rend/bb is that it has 4 outcomes, rend crit/bloodbath crit, rend crit / bloodbath nl dam, nl rend / crit bloodbath, and nl rend / nl bloodbath. Since the last bloodbath overwrites all the bloodbaths in the area, you can end up with a nl bloodbath. Also you can only have 1 bloodbath active, multiple barbs can rend but the bloodbath proc only gets applied once, hence the one with the highest dps in the party should have rend, and the others have lacerate. You can have multiple rends active.

I searched the forums amd nutro didn't do enough testing on the bloodbath to confirm or deny if it's attached at all to passives on the original damage dealer / probably because that wasn't an issue back then.

If crit is that important, shouldn't we use weaponmaster over ruthless? 30% under 40%? - which I think is less useful than bloodshed.

This post was edited by PhatDawg on Mar 8 2014 02:13pm

Not a fan of walls of text, but I will explain this on this thread here.

- Believe me when I say that I've thoroughly tested Bloodshed and ITF in actual gameplay (not theory of math and numbers)

There is significant differences in clear speeds between the two and ITF >>>> bloodshed and again I say IT'S NOT CLOSE.

- Paper dps means nothing, I'm only rocking 208k paper now.

- Area damage is an extremely weak stat and primary (I've explained this so many times in the past in ROS Beta vids that I'm not gonna discuss it again)

- Here are the scenarios that happen

Charge crit / rend crit = everything dead
Charge crit / rend non-crit = everything dead
Charge non-crit / rend crit = everything dead
Charge non-crit / rend non-crit = 10-20% life remaining

Nado ticks and procs are irrelevant since it's highly RNG with such low base APS.

Bloodbath > lacerate or ravage only because it cleans up for the times both skills don't crit and cleans up the 10-20% mob.

this is why you want to stack WHITE damage / Raw Damage for these runs like I have, I'm rocking 5k STR, 35% physical and red gem in wep, to bring my base white damage up since my CRITS are already overkilling the content even with only 248% CD.

Regardless of what your gear level is at, you always should strive for optimized gear setups and slowly progress towards it even if it means gimping yourself in the short-term, this is something that will be important concept in ROS.

- Ruthless is perfect synergy with rotation of, charge/rend, charge/rend since the charges bring the mobs in range of hitting ruthless zone with the rends.

- Yes crit is extremely important in the rend/slaughter builds, BUT not important to go over ruthless, since ruthless is huge for our rends. I did brief tests and afaik this is how ruthless works with bloodbath.

All original bloodbath rends take benefit from ruthless when mobs under 30%
All proc bloodbath rends take benefit from ruthless when mobs under 30%
All proc bloodbath rends also have chance to crit

I went back and forth between WEP master and ruthless but at the end of the day because of the variance of COTA runs, ruthless just gives our rends that extra DPS needed and really gives value for every 20 fury spent.

the choice is simple

5% more chance of securing one of the 3/4 scenarios to finish mobs instantly (not much if you consider it in the big picture because of charge/rend both being aoe attacks and COTA having ranging density per engagement)

VS

40% more damage to mobs under 30% is extremely powerful for rends, it also creates opportunities for us when we get bad rng and get the 1/4 scenario where charge doesn't crit and majority of rends didn't crit. It comes into play very frequently in lots of scenarios, basically this passive secures kills in spots where we wouldn't without it.

hope that answer your questions

Tested the group runs, we realized XP ranges were tighter than originally thought.

Here are some pics of the fun to come, will be testing the group run later tonight



XP range in two different spots



the group rotation

team #1 = red
team #2 = blue
Star = where I TP out from

Also stacked CDR so that my second war cry pop where the red and blue teams meet.

This post was edited by MannerCookie on Mar 8 2014 10:46pm

4B xp per hour has been broken...

how high will it go?

Didn't get to do more runs, so just putting this up for now

Heya, any suggestions for upgrading my barb ?

http://eu.battle.net/d3/de/profile/Atum-1236/hero/6774731

im still with natalyas boots+ring for 7%crit bonus, and havent found any better 2nd ring

I just tested and the bloodshed rune damage doesn't work that way.
It does 20% of your CRIT DAMAGE not normal damage.
So if you have total of 600% critical hit damage from items then the bloodshed rune damage would be
700% weapon damage * 20% = 140% weapon damage aoe. (Its not 20% weapon damage aoe)

So the bloodshed rune damage depends on your crit damage. If you are gonna use bloodshed rune, stack crit damage.

This post was edited by toby0723 on Mar 9 2014 07:31am

all you had to do was read the tool tip, it says critical hits will deal 20% of damage done in an aoe

which im not even sure rend works with bloodshed

since rends never really crit (by that i mean no yellow numbers)

if it did work it would probably only proc off the initial tick (~1-1.5m if skorn rend crit) so thats only 200-300k aoe, thats not worth it)

what bloodshed really shines with is HOTA, if I run into a pack of 30-40 monsters i charge in cast one rend and one HOTA and most of the time the whole screen just blows up because of bloodshed and bloodbath rend

This post was edited by Tboner on Mar 9 2014 01:51pm