Hi,

i did build myself a nice firezon and i am trying to optimize her since..

now i got a question on which bow to use or more like wondering if the maxroll charplanner is just plain wrong:



15/3 5soc mb 4x 5/-5 rbf + shael

vs

HoJ mb 3sk

when i compare them in maxroll (https://maxroll.gg/d2/d2planner/f2w90f0x - should dmgwise be my build with charms just rounded) it says i get way more damage with the hoj bow, when my ingame charscreens tells me something way different

Hoj offers:

-20 fres
Holyfire aura lvl 16 - ->123-180 fire dmg added to my attack

Gemmed bow:

-20 fres
68-180 fire dmg (plain dmg from rbfs)
+20% firedmg

so i feel like this should be a nobrainer towards the gemmed mb...

but why does maxroll say other wise?

is it just the phys dmg that makes the difference here? so single target hoj would actually be better, but for packs its mb? the phys dmg only applys on one (or mb more with pierce) target, does it?

or do i miss something?

This post was edited by maGeneSs on Feb 26 2024 09:32am

https://www.theamazonbasin.com/wiki/index.php/Fire_Arrow

Adds fire damage and converts a percentage of physical damage to fire damage.

Gemmed bow, converted damage 61-170
HoJ, converted damage 236-580

So yes, having a higher phys damage will give you also more fire damage.

ah nice, thats good to know.

can u help me find the exact formula for dmg on this site? i cant really find it :/

or i dont understand it


edit:

and wouldnt that be shown in charscreen ingame?

This post was edited by maGeneSs on Feb 26 2024 02:26pm

The gemmed bow should give more damage overall than the hoj due to the +20% AND -20%, where as the hoj is only giving -20% and minimal 180 max fire dmg from the holy fire aura. The gem'd bow is giving +20% damage stacked with your skill.

Well thanks but you are actually just stating points which i already got in my post, so that doesnt really help me

really interested in that dmg formula for explosive/immolation...

google didnt help me so far

Ormus would add Nice dmg.
So would eni.

Magezons can be fun. Ice + fire.
I would just use a faith mb though.

This post was edited by gel87 on Feb 27 2024 11:59am

I am using a jewelers ap with 15/-15 + ias/maek..

I got a faith in stash, i let maxroll.calculate the dmg with it, and its not even close, cause actually i only get 1 more rbf and +1 skill for needing the ias.

and i know they are fun, got em both

still looking for a way to calculate the dmg exactly comparing these bows

I'm currently playing with a Magezon (FA/IA), and while my gear isn't as fancy as yours (I'm going full Mav's among other stuff), as far as I could see IA works in a similar fashion to FA: fire damage is added both to the explosion and the physical damage portion (FA/IA are the elemental damage on the skill tab, with the pluses from %, added to a standard attack). I was able to see that because I use Demon Limb Enchant prebuff to gain a sliver of fire dmg and some good AR, in order to Strafe with more consistency (Strafe helps with life/mana sustain and dual Fire/Cold Immunes). Ignoring the -% part (since it applies in both cases) and the radial damage from Holy Fire, I did some napkin math:

Level 20 Immolation Arrow (+ full synergy from Exploding Arrow, no other +skills) = 1080-1110
Standard Ranged attack from a MB with 187 Dex and 200% ED, no other effects accounted for = 172-404 (I know they're not the same bows, it's just for comparison)

HoJ:
(1080-1110 + 123-180) / (172-404 + 123-180) = 1203-1290 / 295-584

Gemmed MB:
[(1080-1110 + 68-180) + 20%] / (172-404 + 68-180) = 1377-1548 / 240-584 (+% elemental damage doesn't apply to damage increase to ranged attacks, only melee)

Considering that the +20% will apply to the base skill, the Gemmed MB will likely give much more elemental damage, specially when you add +skills and +fire damage from other sources (other facets/charms) to the mix. Full Mav's has +20% cold dmg, and due to that every +skill adds ~100 cold damage in FA. HoJ has more %ED than a socketed bow and that certainly will increase your physical damage, but since the planned gear has lots of +% fire damage the elemental damage will scale a lot.

I assume that HoJ can surpass a Gemmed MB if you pair it with Dragon to stack the aura, though, if you consider that additive increments have diminishing returns when compared to multiplicative ones.


FA/IA always hit in the targeted enemy, but AR is used in the Pierce to-hit check calculations. Since FA/IA have a damage radius, Pierce will make the same arrow blow lots of times. Can't say for sure about the physical portion of damage, but it's safe to assume that it applies to every enemy it hits, though it's less likely that enemies will be hit by the arrow itself than the explosion it generates.

Also, keep in mind that DS/CS, life/mana leech and other melee modifiers apply only to the physical portion, so having a good physical damage increases IMHO the overall consistency of the build, specially if you use FA/EA (no CD and very mana intensive). Insight certainly alleviates some of the mana issues, and gear with ml/maek also does - but in higher player settings, after launching a volley of FA's I Strafe a bit to replenish my mana, it works wonders.

This post was edited by russo_bolado on Mar 8 2024 10:45am

yoo, thanks for ur response

if i see it right the conversion from physical damage doesnt apply on immolation arrow and explosive arrow, only for fire arrow? thats what i took from maxroll so far and i cant see that in you formulas aswell^^

also i dont really get why u use the same 200ed bow for comparism, cause actually i wanna compare a 15ed vs a 336ed (my hoj roll so far) bow..


atm i am using the gemmed bow for the aoe fire dmg increase, cause it feels like leeching mana with this less damage doesnt really work for me (tried it on my frostmaiden with even more phys dmg), i got like 8 maek and manapots

btw:
maybe ill think about combining both of my amazons, but since i kinda bought a lot of fancy stuff for both, it would be kind of a waste^^
altho cs runs are a bit slow with firedmg cause of all those high fireres mobs...

but u gotta leave some synergies behind i guess? i kinda have penetrate maxed for more ar cause of piercing possibilities

This post was edited by maGeneSs on Mar 8 2024 11:59am

Yes, there's no conversion in EA and IA - the damage from the skill is added to a standard attack.



It was just napkin math. I tinkered a bit with your planner and came with those scenarios for EA (IA seems to be bugged in planner, the fire damage from skill is being added in the missile attack too):

Gemmed MB+Gemmed AP (8 fpa)
Missile Damage: 453–1162
Explosion Damage: 4859–5979

HoJ+Gemmed AP (8 fpa)
Missile Damage: 782–1711
Explosion Damage: 4362–5339

HoJ+Dragon (9 fpa)
Missile Damage: 1051–1878
Explosion Damage: 3807–4565



The pure Firezon alternates between IA and EA - you launch some EA while IA is on CD, so all fire tree is spent. And there's still room for charms, so you can run a Fire sunder to use those -fire res and better deal with immunes (HoJ would fare better in this case due to the increased physical dmg). Though your setup is pure glass cannon (as is the Firezon), you're best farming spots with no fire immunes like Stony Tomb. I play SP on Switch (no editor AFAIK), which means item availability is limited, and personally I value survivability/playing in multiple areas, so I either use Sunder or builds with multiple damage types. The Frostmaiden/Magezon are very intensive regarding mana and Infinity is capped at 1/5, which means I prefer Insight on Merc to ease mana consumption.