to say "my justification is shared values" is not actually a justification

yes this "shared values" thing without justification is the same as blind religious faith.

you have faith in morality, you simply don't understand it or many other things.

he defined raped, nobody asked for a definition or disagreed with his definition I simply asked how we know his definition is evil, if it is, and how do we know that sex is not automatically evil like he said.

i'm not shifting anything he made two separate statements, maybe reread what he read?

Sex by itself isn't automatically evil.

is a truth statement he made, I asked "how do we know sex itself isn't automatically evil?"

Rape = unsolicited/unwanted sexual intercorse

is a truth statement, I asked "is unsolicited/unwanted sex evil, if so, how do we know this is the case?"

This post was edited by majorblood on Jul 18 2026 10:22pm

Ah the moral dilemma of the moral relativist.

"Society thinks pedophilia is ok, so it must be ok then." That's the logical conclusion of the argument. Without an anchor in what decent humans inherently know to be true (rape and pedophilia=bad), anything goes. Anything goes mean including child marriage like in the Hadith and accepted in the Q'ran

This post was edited by Coerce on Jul 18 2026 10:38pm

If sex isn't evil but unwanted sex (rape) is then evil becomes something that is unwanted. Which makes it a byproduct of preference not some divine nature or decree.

Evil and good are made up words to describe unwanted actions or people. These can be confusing and easily misunderstood terms so ill state my position in the following manner: I don't prefer forced sexual intercourse (rape) on me or anyone else.

At Church tonight we started our Exodus Series part 2. We read Exodus Chapter 19, which ironically is God coming down to the people of Israel at Mt Sinai. Now Exodus 20 is the 10 Commandments but we will also read that the people tell Moses to speak to them himself but not to have God speak to them or they will die. You see God appearing is a very terrifying experience. We read that everyone in the camp trembled. Even so the people heard God speaking, who showed up in a dense cloud so they will hear but not see. Since they did not see anything they will not make an image in the form of anything above or on the Earth or the waters below.

Exodus 19 ESV

At Mount Sinai

19 On the first day of the third month after the Israelites left Egypt—on that very day—they came to the Desert of Sinai. 2 After they set out from Rephidim, they entered the Desert of Sinai, and Israel camped there in the desert in front of the mountain.

3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak. 8 The people all responded together, “We will do everything the Lord has said.” So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.

9 The Lord said to Moses, “I am going to come to you in a dense cloud, so that the people will hear me speaking with you and will always put their trust in you.” Then Moses told the Lord what the people had said.

10 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes 11 and be ready by the third day, because on that day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death. 13 They are to be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on them. No person or animal shall be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain.”

14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the Lord said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the Lord and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the Lord, must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.”

23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”

24 The Lord replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the Lord, or he will break out against them.”

25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

Exodus 20:18-21 ESV

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

Again, it's not a matter of preference. I prefer blueberries to strawberries, I do not want to imprison people for life when they consume strawberries.

This has nothing to do with preference...

You are changing the metaphor. Its supposed to be forcing someone to eat strawberries when they didn't want your particular strawberries. They might enjoy eating strawberries very much just not from you.

Same thing can be said about sex. Intercourse is a very enjoyable activity there is nothing inherently evil or wrong with it. What makes it bad is preference. As soon as you decides don't want it you label it bad/evil. When its consensual its good. The ONLY thing that changes is our preference. Rape is just another word for unwanted sex. What is the word for consensual sex? What is a word for nonconsensual strawberry feeding?

These labels come from humans not some magical genie. Stop using crude and shallow terminology like evil and good to define complex ideas.

This post was edited by addone on Jul 19 2026 06:44am

Obvious trolling ^

I wrote the metaphor, you changed it.

But you're even wrong in pretending that morals are only about the preference of the victim. We have statutory rape laws because no one cares whether or not a child wanted to have sex with an adult. Pedophilia is evil regardless, the crime is entirely on the adult and pretty much everyone agrees that the punishment should be extremely harsh.

No I wrote the original metaphor about strawberries to demonstrate a point and you rearranged the metaphor to represent something else. I corrected it to more accurately align with what we are talking about.
Which is "its is our preference" around the strawberries that is labeled as evil not that strawberries themselves are.

Statutory rape laws are essentially a collective legally binding (enforced) preference to prevent others forcing themselves onto those who are unable to hold clear minded and or mature enough preference for themselves.
Later in life those minors when they turn adults can decide for themselves if they prefer sex. So we invented laws/protection to safeguard them from those forced decisions until they come of age. The people decide what that age is as a collective. Some want it lower some prefer it higher. The majory preference vote decided. Different countries have different preferences.


There is no objective morality only relative.

This post was edited by addone on Jul 19 2026 03:03pm