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Jul 2 2026 01:43am
If God exists then all gods are possible
If magic exists then Harry Potter is possible
If Diablo exists then it's possible to farm soj
That's a big IF.

Neither magic nor gods were proven to exist. You are starting your belief with x exists therefore y but you need to prove x first.

This is fallacious thinking.

Bible is not independent historical document it has some historical aspects. But it's mostly an instruction manual on how to kiss ass of an invisible entity.
Some poetry, prophetic nonsense, visions and occasional mention of events most of which are made up. Either outright magical, highly unlikely and a tiny few that are likely.

If you cannot prove all of them then the book cannot call itself truthful or Divine inspired. Unless you believe in a god that lies frequently but gaslights you into say otherwise.


We actually agree on one important point: if God does not exist, then the resurrection did not happen.

Where we disagree is your use of the word "prove." I don't claim God's existence has been proven with mathematical or scientific certainty. I believe it is supported by a cumulative case: philosophical arguments for a necessary first cause, the fine-tuning and intelligibility of the universe, objective moral values, and the historical evidence surrounding Jesus. Those arguments can be debated, but they are arguments—not blind assertions.

You haven't proven that God cannot exist either. You've concluded that based on your worldview that miracles do not occur. That's a philosophical position, not a scientific fact. Science studies repeatable natural phenomena; it cannot prove the universal statement that "no miracle has ever occurred."

You also said, "If God exists then all gods are possible." That doesn't logically follow. If the existence of one God were established, it would not make every religious claim true. Each religion still has to be evaluated on its own historical, philosophical, and textual merits. The existence of one explanation doesn't validate every competing explanation.

Your Harry Potter analogy has the same problem as the Spider-Man analogy. We know Harry Potter is fiction because its author presented it as fiction. The New Testament presents itself as recording real people, places, rulers, and events. That doesn't automatically make it true, but it makes it a historical claim that can be investigated rather than dismissed simply because it contains miracles.

Finally, your standard that every claim in the Bible must be proven before any claim can be accepted isn't how historians evaluate any ancient document. We don't throw out an entire source because some claims are debated. We examine each claim on its own evidence. That's how Roman histories, Egyptian records, and every other ancient source are treated.

So our disagreement isn't really about one miracle. It's about worldview. You begin by assuming miracles don't happen unless they can be scientifically demonstrated. I begin by asking whether God exists and then evaluate the historical evidence in light of that possibility. That's why we reach different conclusions—not because one of us is ignoring evidence, but because we interpret it through different philosophical starting points.
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Jul 2 2026 03:36am
We actually agree on one important point: if God does not exist, then the resurrection did not happen.

Where we disagree is your use of the word "prove." I don't claim God's existence has been proven with mathematical or scientific certainty. I believe it is supported by a cumulative case: philosophical arguments for a necessary first cause, the fine-tuning and intelligibility of the universe, objective moral values, and the historical evidence surrounding Jesus. Those arguments can be debated, but they are arguments—not blind assertions.

You haven't proven that God cannot exist either. You've concluded that based on your worldview that miracles do not occur. That's a philosophical position, not a scientific fact. Science studies repeatable natural phenomena; it cannot prove the universal statement that "no miracle has ever occurred."

You also said, "If God exists then all gods are possible." That doesn't logically follow. If the existence of one God were established, it would not make every religious claim true. Each religion still has to be evaluated on its own historical, philosophical, and textual merits. The existence of one explanation doesn't validate every competing explanation.

Your Harry Potter analogy has the same problem as the Spider-Man analogy. We know Harry Potter is fiction because its author presented it as fiction. The New Testament presents itself as recording real people, places, rulers, and events. That doesn't automatically make it true, but it makes it a historical claim that can be investigated rather than dismissed simply because it contains miracles.

Finally, your standard that every claim in the Bible must be proven before any claim can be accepted isn't how historians evaluate any ancient document. We don't throw out an entire source because some claims are debated. We examine each claim on its own evidence. That's how Roman histories, Egyptian records, and every other ancient source are treated.

So our disagreement isn't really about one miracle. It's about worldview. You begin by assuming miracles don't happen unless they can be scientifically demonstrated. I begin by asking whether God exists and then evaluate the historical evidence in light of that possibility. That's why we reach different conclusions—not because one of us is ignoring evidence, but because we interpret it through different philosophical starting points.


Bible references existence of other gods including many magical creatures beings. If you are christian and believe the bible you are also acknowledging the existence of other gods.
My point was IF Harry Potter exists then so does the magical universe. I can make a long list of (religious) books that were intended to be true that also contain magic. The intent of the author is trivial to their authenticity. The intent of the author can be to lie or be mistaken. What if Harry Potter author intended it to be truth will that automatically make it true? No thats absurd so your logic doesn't hold.

Everything in the bible must be true otherwise its not a word of god. The standard for fallible humans is not the same for supposedly perfect and all powerful being. So yea you do unfortunately.
Also you are confusing history that we know as exactly how it happened. Hate to break it to you but there are many historians who don't agree with everything and its constantly revised, the history books are constantly changed because people lie or discover mistakes or new information. So if you believe history 100% exactly how you've been told then I have a bridge for sale.

You can argue that some things in the bible are true and prove that they were in fact true or at least possible i might not disagree but a few non magical mundane places or events don't validate all the magical ones.
By the same token I can dig into every religious/holy book and find small crumbs of truth that doesn't make them all true unfortunately.
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Jul 2 2026 05:27am
Bible references existence of other gods including many magical creatures beings. If you are christian and believe the bible you are also acknowledging the existence of other gods.
My point was IF Harry Potter exists then so does the magical universe. I can make a long list of (religious) books that were intended to be true that also contain magic. The intent of the author is trivial to their authenticity. The intent of the author can be to lie or be mistaken. What if Harry Potter author intended it to be truth will that automatically make it true? No thats absurd so your logic doesn't hold.

Everything in the bible must be true otherwise its not a word of god. The standard for fallible humans is not the same for supposedly perfect and all powerful being. So yea you do unfortunately.
Also you are confusing history that we know as exactly how it happened. Hate to break it to you but there are many historians who don't agree with everything and its constantly revised, the history books are constantly changed because people lie or discover mistakes or new information. So if you believe history 100% exactly how you've been told then I have a bridge for sale.

You can argue that some things in the bible are true and prove that they were in fact true or at least possible i might not disagree but a few non magical mundane places or events don't validate all the magical ones.
By the same token I can dig into every religious/holy book and find small crumbs of truth that doesn't make them all true unfortunately.


1 Corinthians 8:6: "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ..."

John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
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Jul 2 2026 05:32am
lets talk about magic
'atheists always scoff about "magic"
no greater "magic" then life (living systems) arising from some kind of accidental means

but forget about that for now
lets talk about perhaps the greatest event of my life? over 10 years ago now (perhaps spent 6 months to a year as a drinking christian.) (come as you are). :) .
my alcoholism was hopeless. i lived a cycle of when i was sober getting drunk was the best idea and when i was hung over quitting drinking was the best idea. the day i got delivered i was hungover again and still drunk. i did what i never done before. i poured out the rest of the bottle in the sink and fell to my knees in prayer. i prayed to be free of this affliction. i said take it take it from me. (didnt realize how powerful of a memory this still is). the whole thing was hopeless as i rose to my feet in despair a feeling came over my whole body. (i later learned about addiction at a cellular level) i sobered up and my hangover was gone and i have never drank again.

curious how the 'atheist scoff "magic". what else would a person call it?..........well we call it miracles.............still magic isnt a bad description

This post was edited by TiStuff on Jul 2 2026 05:32am
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Jul 2 2026 06:09am
lets talk about magic
'atheists always scoff about "magic"
no greater "magic" then life (living systems) arising from some kind of accidental means

but forget about that for now
lets talk about perhaps the greatest event of my life? over 10 years ago now (perhaps spent 6 months to a year as a drinking christian.) (come as you are). :) .
my alcoholism was hopeless. i lived a cycle of when i was sober getting drunk was the best idea and when i was hung over quitting drinking was the best idea. the day i got delivered i was hungover again and still drunk. i did what i never done before. i poured out the rest of the bottle in the sink and fell to my knees in prayer. i prayed to be free of this affliction. i said take it take it from me. (didnt realize how powerful of a memory this still is). the whole thing was hopeless as i rose to my feet in despair a feeling came over my whole body. (i later learned about addiction at a cellular level) i sobered up and my hangover was gone and i have never drank again.

curious how the 'atheist scoff "magic". what else would a person call it?..........well we call it miracles.............still magic isnt a bad description


There are millions of alcoholics who give up drinking WITHOUT use of religion. You just used your willpower/lifestyle changes and thought it was some magical wizard. It wasn't.
Anything you think god does can be achieved without.

Ask yourself how are millions of other alcoholics overcome their addiction? It just proves you tricked your mind. You could of just as easily prayed to Buddha and achieved same results.
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Jul 2 2026 06:16am
There are millions of alcoholics who give up drinking WITHOUT use of religion. You just used your willpower/lifestyle changes and thought it was some magical wizard. It wasn't.
Anything you think god does can be achieved without.

Ask yourself how are millions of other alcoholics overcome their addiction? It just proves you tricked your mind. You could of just as easily prayed to Buddha and achieved same results.


why would i consider explanations from someone that thinks they come from monkeys
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Jul 2 2026 11:25am
There are millions of alcoholics who give up drinking WITHOUT use of religion. You just used your willpower/lifestyle changes and thought it was some magical wizard. It wasn't.
Anything you think god does can be achieved without.

Ask yourself how are millions of other alcoholics overcome their addiction? It just proves you tricked your mind. You could of just as easily prayed to Buddha and achieved same results.


Free will decisions given from a creator and not the result of any accidental occurrence.

Also can you link me these millions of studies that all specify that they didn't trust in the lord for their lifestyle change?
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Jul 2 2026 03:54pm
why would i consider explanations from someone that thinks they come from monkeys


Go to AA or online and search how people overcome their alcohol/drug/gambling etc addictions there might be a few who use god as an excuse but most did it without. You would find its just making a decision, going to rehab/detox, making lifestyle changes, and using support groups like AA and family/friends to keep you from relapsing. NOTHING magical about it.

Ask them, don't take my word for it. You just assume its god because it worked for you but its not god when it works for other people without god.
People quit addictions all the time its not evidence for magic LOL.

https://www.newsweek.com/i-overcame-my-alcohol-addiction-learning-two-lessons-1890355
https://www.reddit.com/r/stopdrinking/comments/1fo60w8/any_success_stories_from_people_who_drank_as_much/
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Jul 2 2026 04:05pm
Go to AA or online and search how people overcome their alcohol/drug/gambling etc addictions there might be a few who use god as an excuse but most did it without. You would find its just making a decision, going to rehab/detox, making lifestyle changes, and using support groups like AA and family/friends to keep you from relapsing. NOTHING magical about it.

Ask them, don't take my word for it. You just assume its god because it worked for you but its not god when it works for other people without god.
People quit addictions all the time its not evidence for magic LOL.

https://www.newsweek.com/i-overcame-my-alcohol-addiction-learning-two-lessons-1890355
https://www.reddit.com/r/stopdrinking/comments/1fo60w8/any_success_stories_from_people_who_drank_as_much/


i didnt do any of that stuff...........
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Jul 2 2026 04:08pm
Free will decisions given from a creator and not the result of any accidental occurrence.

Also can you link me these millions of studies that all specify that they didn't trust in the lord for their lifestyle change?


Health concerns is usually number #1 reason why people quit
#2 Major disruptions in life such as family, job and social impact.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11626824/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772724624000842

Many people quit because they grow up and decide to be mature adults, get a respectable job, start a family, get into social circles where being an alcoholic is frowned upon. Etc
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6713001/

Its got nothing to do with god. Your question poses its got something to do with invisible jesus but you haven't demonstrated that to be the case. Jesus smuggling into the question without justification is a grifting tactic.
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