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Jun 28 2026 09:19am
Seems the wars started around the time NATO wanted Ukraine to join them.

No—NATO did not offer Ukraine full membership before Russia’s 2022 invasion. NATO had said in 2008 that Ukraine “will become a member” someday, but it did not extend a formal invitation or set a membership date before the invasion.
After the invasion, Ukraine applied for membership in May 2022, and NATO has since discussed an accelerated path, but still without immediate accession

Quote
I am going by my own logic here because I won't listen to any sides propaganda, which is all what everyone here is going of off. All of these discussions on these forums are all based on what someone on the news said. It's not like you're actually there seeing what's happening. The only thing you can be certain about is using your own logic and not what somebody that works for corporations told you.


That precisely the problem.
There's no common ground on what to agree on.
Professional journalism, following a protocol, peer-reviewed and fact-checked vs. some rdm Youtuber or tiktoker selling their supplements, generating views with hatred and divisive factoids at best.

Sad that society has lost you.
But it's never too late to come back! :hug:
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Jun 28 2026 10:50am
No—NATO did not offer Ukraine full membership before Russia’s 2022 invasion. NATO had said in 2008 that Ukraine “will become a member” someday, but it did not extend a formal invitation or set a membership date before the invasion.
After the invasion, Ukraine applied for membership in May 2022, and NATO has since discussed an accelerated path, but still without immediate accession



That precisely the problem.
There's no common ground on what to agree on.
Professional journalism, following a protocol, peer-reviewed and fact-checked vs. some rdm Youtuber or tiktoker selling their supplements, generating views with hatred and divisive factoids at best.

Sad that society has lost you.
But it's never too late to come back! :hug:


@bold

In 2008 NATO officially welcomed Ukraine and Georgia as future NATO members. This happened after NATO had expanded East several times (breaking their earlier promises not to expand).

Russia had protested every time NATO expanded, to no avail. Russia had declared Ukraine a red line for obvious reasons that NATO clearly understood there's no doubt about it. NATO decided to push ahead regardless.

Russia had 2 options. Option one doing nothing meant Ukraine would become a NATO member. Option 2 defend your geo-political interests which is what every country would do.

NATO is clearly to blame here.
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Jun 28 2026 09:24pm
@bold

In 2008 NATO officially welcomed Ukraine and Georgia as future NATO members. This happened after NATO had expanded East several times (breaking their earlier promises not to expand).

Russia had protested every time NATO expanded, to no avail. Russia had declared Ukraine a red line for obvious reasons that NATO clearly understood there's no doubt about it. NATO decided to push ahead regardless.

Russia had 2 options. Option one doing nothing meant Ukraine would become a NATO member. Option 2 defend your geo-political interests which is what every country would do.

NATO is clearly to blame here.


I think the real red line was the use of a color revolution to seize Ukraine by force.

This is a point I've raised a few times. In an alternate history we don't know how it would play out if Ukraine peacefully and democratically abandoned Russia for the EU. Would Russia be provoked into attempting to cling to their sphere through oppressive tactics, coercion, invasion? Maybe, maybe not. Russia lost a creeping influence to the west in soft NATO expansion, but that fumbled in Ukraine and instead the west backed an overt nazi led coup d'etat like it was some CIA operation in a banana republic. On Russia's doorstep that could not go unanswered.

This also aligned China to Russia's side more than any other misstep Biden could make. Nothing China fears more than our soft power and shadow ops trying to destablize them and their sphere and their extreme distaste for color revolutions. They had no dog in this fight and instead lent their silent support to the Russian side.
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Jun 28 2026 11:36pm
"I had Germany's most criminal tenants"

They even stole the heat pump and the toilet.

Wendeburg (Lower Saxony) – Natalie Schell (46) still finds the missing heat pumps strange. The missing doorbell makes her suspicious. When she looks out the window, she gets a shock. The kitchen is gone. "That's when it slowly dawned on me," says the homeowner. She alerts the police.

When the officers opened the door, a feeling of unease turned into sheer horror. Room by room, it became clear what must have happened. The tenants hadn't simply packed their belongings and disappeared. They had stripped the house bare. Toilets, sinks, faucets, and door hardware were all missing. Even the underfloor heating system had been removed and stolen. "Practically everything was taken," said Schell.

For Natalie Schell, the semi-detached house in Wendeburg ( Lower Saxony ) was an investment in her children's future. She had the new building constructed in 2024. She lives in one half herself, and rented the other half to a Ukrainian family with six children at the beginning of 2025. It's 140 square meters, five rooms, and completely new. The total rent, including utilities, is €1895.

Source: Bild

https://bild.de/regional/niedersachsen/sie-klauten-sogar-das-klo-ich-hatte-deutschlands-kriminellste-mieter-6a319dbd7e682fc37fbfce1b

This post was edited by Norlander on Jun 29 2026 12:00am
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Jun 29 2026 12:22am
I think the real red line was the use of a color revolution to seize Ukraine by force.

This is a point I've raised a few times. In an alternate history we don't know how it would play out if Ukraine peacefully and democratically abandoned Russia for the EU. Would Russia be provoked into attempting to cling to their sphere through oppressive tactics, coercion, invasion? Maybe, maybe not. Russia lost a creeping influence to the west in soft NATO expansion, but that fumbled in Ukraine and instead the west backed an overt nazi led coup d'etat like it was some CIA operation in a banana republic. On Russia's doorstep that could not go unanswered.

This also aligned China to Russia's side more than any other misstep Biden could make. Nothing China fears more than our soft power and shadow ops trying to destablize them and their sphere and their extreme distaste for color revolutions. They had no dog in this fight and instead lent their silent support to the Russian side.


It's more complicated than just a sphere of influence. Crimea had always been Russian with an important (ice-free) Russian naval base in Sevastopol, a large group of ethnic Russians live in Eastern and South Ukraine, important cities like Odessa were founded and built by Russians. We're talking about a historic part of Russia that became Ukrainian when the USSR broke up and Russia simply wasn't gonna hand it over to NATO and have NATO warships in Odessa and Sevastopol right on their border.

About the timeline, this is a great article to read, it explains everything https://carnegieendowment.org/russia-eurasia/posts/2016/04/the-revival-of-the-russian-military

(Quotes from linked article)

Quote
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Russian military rotted away. In one of the most dramatic campaigns of peacetime demilitarization in world history, from 1988 to 1994, Moscow’s armed forces shrank from five million to one million personnel. As the Kremlin’s defense expenditures plunged from around $246 billion in 1988 to $14 billion in 1994, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, the government withdrew some 700,000 servicemen from Afghanistan, Germany, Mongolia, and eastern Europe. So much had the prestige of the military profession evaporated during the 1990s that when the nuclear submarine Kursk sank in the Barents Sea in 2000, its captain was earning the equivalent of $200 per month.


NATO took advantage of this. They'd promised they wouldn't expand and kicked the Russians when they were down. The Russians could only protest -->

Quote
Moscow protested vehemently against the alliance’s eastern expansion, its 1999 bombing campaign in Yugoslavia, and the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq, but Russia was too weak to block any of these moves.



In 2008 Putin announced a massive increase in defense spending which was the only option left when a powerful military alliance moves against you, breaking their earlier promises.

To rebuild a military that had completely crumbled would take a long time, I think that they weren't ready in 2014 but felt forced to act because of the Maidan coup. It explains why the Russian military performed so poorly at the beginning of the invasion

Quote
Beginning in 2008, Putin ushered in military reforms and a massive increase in defense spending to upgrade Russia’s creaky military. Thanks to that project, Russia has recently evinced a newfound willingness to use force to get what it wants. First, in February 2014, Moscow sent soldiers in unmarked uniforms to wrest control of Crimea from Ukraine, implicitly threatening Kiev with a wider invasion.
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Jun 29 2026 01:00am
Dang, the lies, the bs, the propaganda in these last comments :blink:

But that's the beauty of freedom of expression.
You can promote absurd claims without the threat of immediate legal action.

Now try that in Russia, have an 'accident' or end up in a gulag and tell me this is all NATO's fault pls :thumbsup:

This post was edited by Sankturio on Jun 29 2026 01:01am
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Jun 29 2026 01:26am
Dang, the lies, the bs, the propaganda in these last comments :blink:

But that's the beauty of freedom of expression.
You can promote absurd claims without the threat of immediate legal action.

Now try that in Russia, have an 'accident' or end up in a gulag and tell me this is all NATO's fault pls :thumbsup:


You should debate the actual content that I posted - but there's nothing you can bring against it. My post hurt your feelings, sucks for you.

You should go to Ukraine bastion of freedom (LOL), say somethng negative about that shit regime and you'll rot in jail like Gonzalo Lira https://www.helsinkitimes.fi/world-int/24744-the-tragic-end-of-gonzalo-lira-a-voice-silenced-in-ukraine.html

Or get jumped by thugs, thrown in a van and straight to to front line.

This post was edited by Djunior on Jun 29 2026 01:27am
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Jun 29 2026 02:17am
Telling a lie 100 times over doesn't make it anything else but a lie.

Or would you prefer to call it an alternative fact for better optics? :P

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Jun 29 2026 03:03am
Telling a lie 100 times over doesn't make it anything else but a lie.

Or would you prefer to call it an alternative fact for better optics? :P


can you list the lies for us so I fully understand your argument?
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Jun 29 2026 03:12am
R u seriously asking?

The Nazi coup d'etat?
The Nato threat pushing Putin into war?
The whole victim blaming?
The cherry picking to desperately underscore the anti-Ukrainian narrative?

All of this is unfortunately so laughable that I frankly feel no incentive to waste my time on lost causes.
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