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Jun 12 2026 11:50am
this conversation devolved over the years from "the soviets dont get the credit the deserve" to "the USA did nothing, it was really Russia who won the war".

There were so many moving pieces, Germany pushed into Russia in the first place because of pressure on the western front. Hitler foolishly thought he could handle the Soviets before winter set in fully to stop them before their industrialization would crush him.

Hitler got smooshed between two great powers, Soviets paid an insane cost in lives and were crucial on both the eastern and western theaters just like the USA. i think its accurate to say we have no idea of the allies could have won without both Russia and the USA in the war. And its almost 100% sure that the allies would have lost to a Germany, Japan, Italy, Russia alliance. German weaponry with Russian soldier count would have been insane. Toss in Italy's gains in jets towards the end of the war and we might have been screwed.


The Germans smashed France and the low countries in a matter of weeks and they kicked the Britisch expeditionary forces out of Europe where they were forced to leave all of their heavy equipment behind at Dunkirk. A massive victory.

It wasn't because of pressure on the Western front, Hitler had become over-confident because of the incredible success on the Western front (mind you the same Hitler had fought in WW1 where the front had hardly moved in 4 years time so he had reason to be confident).

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Jun 12 2026 12:06pm
Is this Iran deal better because Obamas name isn't on it?


Of all the criticism with Obama this to me was a bad one to pile on about.

Fact of the matter is there is no easy optimal solution. Who ever decided to move the needle whether Obama, Trump, etc. the other side was going to criticize it and label it an abject failure. It remains to be seen how all this pans out but I as someone who leans right will be first in line to be critical of Trump. Obama's response wasn't good but this shit show so far is not shaping up any better.

This post was edited by ofthevoid on Jun 12 2026 12:07pm
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Jun 12 2026 12:57pm
The Germans smashed France and the low countries in a matter of weeks and they kicked the Britisch expeditionary forces out of Europe where they were forced to leave all of their heavy equipment behind at Dunkirk. A massive victory.

It wasn't because of pressure on the Western front, Hitler had become over-confident because of the incredible success on the Western front (mind you the same Hitler had fought in WW1 where the front had hardly moved in 4 years time so he had reason to be confident).


I disagree. This narrative only works if you think Hitler had no idea America was joining the Western front. Hitler invaded Russia in June 1941, America entered the war in December 1941. However America pretty publicly started preparing for the entrance into war in 1939. Germany knew this, just as they knew America would be 100% on the allies side. That's why he smashed France so hard, to try and hamstring the allies in the west. He could have in 1939 used Poland as a launching point to invade the USSR, he didn't. He pushed up to the USSR in the early stage of the war hardening his army and proving tactics then tried to sweep the west so it was weak enough to turn towards Russia.

The two fronts he needed to worry about were always clear, Russia on his eastern side, America aiding the allies on his Western side. His strategy was to alter the timing of these two threats so he could mobilize against 1 at a time. I agree however he was overconfident in his campaign to Russia, and i agree it was aided by his easy wins in France, Poland, and elsewhere. I think he also likely thought the Japanese could hamper the soviets enough to give him an edge, but the moment the US joined the pacific theater that was all but done. The japanese having centuries long scores to settle in China and other islands didnt help.
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Jun 12 2026 01:00pm
I disagree. This narrative only works if you think Hitler had no idea America was joining the Western front. Hitler invaded Russia in June 1941, America entered the war in December 1941. However America pretty publicly started preparing for the entrance into war in 1939. Germany knew this, just as they knew America would be 100% on the allies side. That's why he smashed France so hard, to try and hamstring the allies in the west. He could have in 1939 used Poland as a launching point to invade the USSR, he didn't. He pushed up to the USSR in the early stage of the war hardening his army and proving tactics then tried to sweep the west so it was weak enough to turn towards Russia.

The two fronts he needed to worry about were always clear, Russia on his eastern side, America aiding the allies on his Western side. His strategy was to alter the timing of these two threats so he could mobilize against 1 at a time. I agree however he was overconfident in his campaign to Russia, and i agree it was aided by his easy wins in France, Poland, and elsewhere. I think he also likely thought the Japanese could hamper the soviets enough to give him an edge, but the moment the US joined the pacific theater that was all but done. The japanese having centuries long scores to settle in China and other islands didnt help.


What

This is what happened. Talking about being over-confident

Quote
Adolf Hitler declared war on the United States on December 11, 1941, four days after the Japanese surprise attack on Pearl Harbor.


E: You also forget the Germans and the USSR devided Poland between them, it was agreed beforehand. They had a pact -->

Quote
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a non-aggression pact signed between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union on August 23, 1939.


This post was edited by Djunior on Jun 12 2026 01:03pm
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Jun 12 2026 01:54pm
What

This is what happened. Talking about being over-confident



E: You also forget the Germans and the USSR devided Poland between them, it was agreed beforehand. They had a pact -->


I literally said in my post that the USA entered the war in 1941, so im confused why you posted a source that agrees with me.

The USA started it's preparation for war in 1939.

We passed a peace time draft before entering the war, we started retooling factories to make war effort items, we expanded our navy, started selling bonds to fund it, etc.

In 1941 when Hitler invaded Russia he knew the USA would be enterring the war soon. And he knew they'd face issues in the East because of it.

Idk what the counter argument would even be. Hitler thought that he'd not only easily win in Russia in 1941, but also at the exact same time easily repel the American aided allies on his Eastern front? Even for an overconfident commander like Hitler that seems like a stretch.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Jun 12 2026 01:55pm
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Jun 12 2026 05:35pm
I disagree. This narrative only works if you think Hitler had no idea America was joining the Western front. Hitler invaded Russia in June 1941, America entered the war in December 1941. However America pretty publicly started preparing for the entrance into war in 1939. Germany knew this, just as they knew America would be 100% on the allies side. That's why he smashed France so hard, to try and hamstring the allies in the west. He could have in 1939 used Poland as a launching point to invade the USSR, he didn't. He pushed up to the USSR in the early stage of the war hardening his army and proving tactics then tried to sweep the west so it was weak enough to turn towards Russia.

The two fronts he needed to worry about were always clear, Russia on his eastern side, America aiding the allies on his Western side. His strategy was to alter the timing of these two threats so he could mobilize against 1 at a time. I agree however he was overconfident in his campaign to Russia, and i agree it was aided by his easy wins in France, Poland, and elsewhere. I think he also likely thought the Japanese could hamper the soviets enough to give him an edge, but the moment the US joined the pacific theater that was all but done. The japanese having centuries long scores to settle in China and other islands didnt help.


That's revisionist history.

1. Hitler lost interest in the Western theatre of the war once he had conquered all of continental Western Europe and the Battle for Britain had failed. It was only once everything he had to do in the West was done that he turned to the East.
2. He couldn't know that the Japanese would foolishly drag the U.S. into the war as early as 1941 by their misguided attack on Pearl Harbor.
3. Ideologically and strategically, the Eastern Campaign was the centerpiece of this whole war; this is where their main long-term objectives could be achieved. Hitler and the Nazis were ideologically driven. For years, they had been harping about the German need for Lebensraum, which they could only find in the east. For years, they had been slandering the Slavs as Untermenschen who were to be subjugated or eradicated. For years, they had been consumed by their rampant, genocidal antisemitism; with the bulk of the European Jews living in Eastern Europe.


Simply put, all the main goals of the Nazis required them to go to the East. They only opened the war with the Western Campaign because those enemies were more economically and militarily developed and in closer proximity; they clearly had to be dealt with first before the longer, more thorough and long-term Eastern Campaign could be launched.


Those factors notwithstanding, the actual execution of the Eastern Campaign then turned out to be a rushed, overconfident disaster. But then again, the clock was ticking due to the rapid industrialization of the USSR and their inherent advantage in manpower. Who knows if things had gone better for Germany if they had had waited until the spring of 1942 before attacking the USSR.
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Jun 13 2026 06:41am
I literally said in my post that the USA entered the war in 1941, so im confused why you posted a source that agrees with me.

The USA started it's preparation for war in 1939.

We passed a peace time draft before entering the war, we started retooling factories to make war effort items, we expanded our navy, started selling bonds to fund it, etc.

In 1941 when Hitler invaded Russia he knew the USA would be enterring the war soon. And he knew they'd face issues in the East because of it.

Idk what the counter argument would even be. Hitler thought that he'd not only easily win in Russia in 1941, but also at the exact same time easily repel the American aided allies on his Eastern front? Even for an overconfident commander like Hitler that seems like a stretch.


You said the US entered the war, what happened is that Hitler declared war on the US while he'd just invaded the USSR showing his overconfidence. In fact he was jubilant after defeating the French and British in a matter of weeks (and taking the low countries, Denmark and Norway as a quick side note).

In WW1 the front barely moved and Germany eventually lost. Germany lost territories and had to pay crippling reparations to the French resulting in runaway inflation and poverty. Now the German got their revenge on their foes in what 6 weeks, the whole country became overconfident.


Adding this to my previous posts: Hitler's invaded the USSR with 3.5 million men it was the largest invasion in history. This was the German army at peak strength. Look up the numbers of men and machines that were lost during 3 full years of war before the allies landed in Normandy.

The allies wouldn't even have had air superiority with all those German planes available, Stuka divebombers would be pounding the fleet while the entire German army would be sitting behind waiting for the allies to land.



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Jun 13 2026 08:49pm
Big L for the Trump Admin :rofl:

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Jun 15 2026 12:19am
The current situation is deeply frustrating because it feels like Washington is throwing Israel under the bus just to secure a diplomatic trophy in Switzerland. The IDF is a world-class, hyper-lethal military machinery that is nothing like the American army in Vietnam; our soldiers are masters of guerrilla and subterranean warfare fighting directly on our own doorstep. In just about ten days of intense maneuvering, our ground forces proved their sheer capability by breaking through to the Litani River and shattering Hezbollah’s front-line defenses. If the political green light were given, the IDF has the tactical superiority to decisively clear everything up to Beirut within a few weeks. Instead, this hard-won military victory is being hijacked by politics, freezing our forces in place right when a terminally weak enemy was on the verge of choking out. Giving a battered, economically broken Iranian regime a lifeline right now is a catastrophic historical mistake, making Trump look much more like Neville Chamberlain than Winston Churchill. By prioritizing a fragile, temporary "peace in our time" to lower global oil prices, the White House is choosing the path of appeasement over total victory. Just as Chamberlain's illusions in 1938 only guaranteed a far more devastating conflict down the road, this Swiss deal merely allows a genocidal regime to catch its breath, stabilize its currency, and rearm its proxies. True security will never come from signing papers with a regime that funds a ring of fire on our borders; it only comes from Churchillian defiance and unleashing overwhelming, asymmetric force to finish the job.
But…. Maybe Trump giving the Iranians enough rope to hang themselves…
If the regime takes that money and spends it on rebuilding Hezbollah or the Houthis instead of fixing their hyper-inflated economy, the internal revolution inside Iran will explode

If they try to cheat on the nuclear terms during the 60 days, Trump can immediately claim he tried diplomacy, blame Tehran for breaking the peace, and re-impose the naval blockade with total international legitimacy.

I don’t know what is going to happen but right now I feel like Trump is sacrificing us..

This post was edited by Many_Names on Jun 15 2026 12:34am
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Jun 15 2026 01:06am
The current situation is deeply frustrating because it feels like Washington is throwing Israel under the bus just to secure a diplomatic trophy in Switzerland. The IDF is a world-class, hyper-lethal military machinery that is nothing like the American army in Vietnam; our soldiers are masters of guerrilla and subterranean warfare fighting directly on our own doorstep. In just about ten days of intense maneuvering, our ground forces proved their sheer capability by breaking through to the Litani River and shattering Hezbollah’s front-line defenses. If the political green light were given, the IDF has the tactical superiority to decisively clear everything up to Beirut within a few weeks. Instead, this hard-won military victory is being hijacked by politics, freezing our forces in place right when a terminally weak enemy was on the verge of choking out. Giving a battered, economically broken Iranian regime a lifeline right now is a catastrophic historical mistake, making Trump look much more like Neville Chamberlain than Winston Churchill. By prioritizing a fragile, temporary "peace in our time" to lower global oil prices, the White House is choosing the path of appeasement over total victory. Just as Chamberlain's illusions in 1938 only guaranteed a far more devastating conflict down the road, this Swiss deal merely allows a genocidal regime to catch its breath, stabilize its currency, and rearm its proxies. True security will never come from signing papers with a regime that funds a ring of fire on our borders; it only comes from Churchillian defiance and unleashing overwhelming, asymmetric force to finish the job.
But…. Maybe Trump giving the Iranians enough rope to hang themselves…
If the regime takes that money and spends it on rebuilding Hezbollah or the Houthis instead of fixing their hyper-inflated economy, the internal revolution inside Iran will explode

If they try to cheat on the nuclear terms during the 60 days, Trump can immediately claim he tried diplomacy, blame Tehran for breaking the peace, and re-impose the naval blockade with total international legitimacy.

I don’t know what is going to happen but right now I feel like Trump is sacrificing us..


Its all staged, military industrial complex doesn't want a quick and decisive victory/resolution. They want to drag this out as much as possible so that the oil stocks and fuel prices remain high. The swamp hasn't been drained
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