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May 28 2026 01:13pm
If I say I love my wife, but that love constituted staying at home, never disagreeing, always listening to me no matter what and never questioning anything, she is not allowed to have a different opinion, no interests in life other than me is that love? No. It's not. Love is freedom and just like you have the freedom to say what you want, you are not free from the consequences of your words. The same can be extrapolated to free will on a cosmic level. It cannot exist without the freedom to choose to live with God or without, that would just be slavery.

Unfortunately, many people choose evil.


You act like choices would be detatched from a creator. Ridiculous.
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May 28 2026 01:46pm
You act like choices would be detatched from a creator. Ridiculous.


If you had a person who you have told and instructed over and over to not do something that bothers you otherwise they will not be allowed into your home again, yet they continue to do it, would you let them into your home? Heaven is a bit like this. It's not a perfect analogy, but still.

Choices are detached from the creator? No, choices you make detach you from the creator because God is not going to force you to love Him; that's not how love works at all. Even if you have a child who you think would be best suited for something and every empirical metric you have indicates that, yet they choose to leave you and pursue something else, it would be loving to encourage the empirically sound route but because they have freedom, they are allowed to fail. That failure has consequences.

"Something cannot come from nothing..." this is basic physics, maybe a bit short and not as expansive in definition but a truth rooted in science nonetheless.
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May 28 2026 01:48pm
You act like choices would be detatched from a creator. Ridiculous.


Also, you should relax on calling people idiots. Your hate, hurt, and unaddressed issues are showing.
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May 28 2026 04:26pm
It's not the morals that weren't perfect, it was the INTERPRETATION that lacked perfection...

These morals have always been perfect. Some of the laws were ritual laws, some were Jewish law, and some were laws applicable to all people (10 commandments etc). Maybe the argument could be made they were relative in that manner, but the morals are still established by God NOT the society's opinion which is the modern view of the idea of moral relativism.

Moral relativism is inherently flawed. People intrinsically know right from wrong when it comes to major sins like murder, theft, adultery etc.


When you say morals only apply because of xyz condition then they automatically become relative.
If interpretation is lacking then the morals become subject to interpretive relativism. Which is what we have today thousands of religions, and billions of interpretations a battle of who's interpretation is the correct one. But that is a false dilemma because there is a third option here: you can just be plain wrong and there is no such thing as an absolute morality thats god given, perfect, universal and inherent.
Afterall you just assumed it without proof.

If people's interpretation of the law is imperfect how do we know the "god's laws" are perfect to begin with? You are back to faith-based presuppositions and circular logic quagmire.

People do not inherently know right from wrong. Otherwise there wouldn't be any crime and no one would need to be taught laws. You were groomed as a child to talk, walk and think in a certain manner you didn't inherit those things. If you visit some remote jungle tribe that has no connection to modern civilization you will be hunted down with bows and spears like a wild pig. With a very high chance of being eaten. This has been documented already.
Your god either doesn't exist or was extremely ineffective at passing on his morals. The morals that you assume come from god have been developed over hundreds of thousands of years by trial and error by numerous civilizations.
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May 28 2026 04:55pm
When you say morals only apply because of xyz condition then they automatically become relative.
If interpretation is lacking then the morals become subject to interpretive relativism. Which is what we have today thousands of religions, and billions of interpretations a battle of who's interpretation is the correct one. But that is a false dilemma because there is a third option here: you can just be plain wrong and there is no such thing as an absolute morality thats god given, perfect, universal and inherent.
Afterall you just assumed it without proof.

If people's interpretation of the law is imperfect how do we know the "god's laws" are perfect to begin with? You are back to faith-based presuppositions and circular logic quagmire.

People do not inherently know right from wrong. Otherwise there wouldn't be any crime and no one would need to be taught laws. You were groomed as a child to talk, walk and think in a certain manner you didn't inherit those things. If you visit some remote jungle tribe that has no connection to modern civilization you will be hunted down with bows and spears like a wild pig. With a very high chance of being eaten. This has been documented already.
Your god either doesn't exist or was extremely ineffective at passing on his morals. The morals that you assume come from god have been developed over hundreds of thousands of years by trial and error by numerous civilizations.


I am talking about relative in the sense of the modern usage; society deems x behavior good therefore it's good as long as society says so. You're correct it was relative because of the time and interpretations, but not in the sense I am referencing.

Your example of being hunted down as a wild pig is fallacious because you have to look at the examples of how the tribes themselves view murder among their own tribespeople. The example given is a defense of territory out of fear of the other, assuming these tribes are like the East Sentinel in that they've had no real contact with outsiders.

Also, I am Catholic so I won't necessarily go down the rabbit hole of interpretation specifics unless it's a separate conversation. Here we are just arguing about Christianity as a whole.

We both have presuppositions. I know what your response will be that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. But science itself states that something cannot come from nothing. So with that scientific presupposition in mind, there has to be a higher power/something acting outside of our realm of existence. I just adhere to the one that has the most historical documentation and real life instances of life-changing and behavior improving outcomes. In almost every category of social well-being there is, people who are Christian have some of the most positive outcomes and overall happiness.

As an anecdotal instance, I also have my lived experience and encounter with God personally at a time when I was just like you. I wasn't even really seeking an answer or God necessarily as I was an atheist for 17 years or so, but there He was when I needed Him the most. Just an addition, I understand it's not "evidence."
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May 28 2026 07:12pm
I am talking about relative in the sense of the modern usage; society deems x behavior good therefore it's good as long as society says so. You're correct it was relative because of the time and interpretations, but not in the sense I am referencing.

Your example of being hunted down as a wild pig is fallacious because you have to look at the examples of how the tribes themselves view murder among their own tribespeople. The example given is a defense of territory out of fear of the other, assuming these tribes are like the East Sentinel in that they've had no real contact with outsiders.

Also, I am Catholic so I won't necessarily go down the rabbit hole of interpretation specifics unless it's a separate conversation. Here we are just arguing about Christianity as a whole.

We both have presuppositions. I know what your response will be that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. But science itself states that something cannot come from nothing. So with that scientific presupposition in mind, there has to be a higher power/something acting outside of our realm of existence. I just adhere to the one that has the most historical documentation and real life instances of life-changing and behavior improving outcomes. In almost every category of social well-being there is, people who are Christian have some of the most positive outcomes and overall happiness.

As an anecdotal instance, I also have my lived experience and encounter with God personally at a time when I was just like you. I wasn't even really seeking an answer or God necessarily as I was an atheist for 17 years or so, but there He was when I needed Him the most. Just an addition, I understand it's not "evidence."


I don't understand how you are not able to see a contradiction. If a tribal hunts others while making exceptions for his own tribe he is applying selective conditional morality that is only relative to his own tribe members.

Science doesn't make claims something came from nothing. Nothing is just a theoretical concept not sure why christians are obsessed bringing it up. Assuming a higher power exists doesn't make it real you need to be able to prove it. If you are going to use personal anecdotes, hearsay, faulty logic and emotional persuasion techniques I am not really interested because they are not credible and don't bring me any closer to truth.

I can just as easily counter with my personal anecdotes and conclude he doesn't exist. Thats why I have been advocating you bring some empirical evidence, something that can be demonstrated, measured, replicated, concrete and objective.

If you cannot produce such proof then consider the possibility you might be wrong or mistaken. Maybe christianity is an erroneous set of claims that sells comforting ideas to guillable people in exchange for tax free donations to the Church. Perhaps its not truth but an organized cult out of thousands that preys on people's needs.
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May 28 2026 09:18pm
I don't understand how you are not able to see a contradiction. If a tribal hunts others while making exceptions for his own tribe he is applying selective conditional morality that is only relative to his own tribe members.

Science doesn't make claims something came from nothing. Nothing is just a theoretical concept not sure why christians are obsessed bringing it up. Assuming a higher power exists doesn't make it real you need to be able to prove it. If you are going to use personal anecdotes, hearsay, faulty logic and emotional persuasion techniques I am not really interested because they are not credible and don't bring me any closer to truth.

I can just as easily counter with my personal anecdotes and conclude he doesn't exist. Thats why I have been advocating you bring some empirical evidence, something that can be demonstrated, measured, replicated, concrete and objective.

If you cannot produce such proof then consider the possibility you might be wrong or mistaken. Maybe christianity is an erroneous set of claims that sells comforting ideas to guillable people in exchange for tax free donations to the Church. Perhaps its not truth but an organized cult out of thousands that preys on people's needs.


Yes it's relative...based on the fact the person being hunted is an intruder. Again you're strawmanning my argument on moral relativism.

The truth is no one can ever show you empirical measurable proof of Christianity. What can be proven, even based on your own presuppositions rooted in physics/quantum theory, is that saying there is no higher power is wrong. Something cannot come from nothing. It's impossible.


Your claim is that Christianity is fake when in reality, the claim that it is fake is "more wrong" than the idea that God or gods exist.
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May 28 2026 09:18pm
Don't make me feel sorry for you. At this point you have used up circular logic, arguments from ignorance, hearsay, personal anecdotes and now you are appealing to subjective emotional responses to determine if a region is true.
This is what you have been reduced to. An emotional appeal is not evidence that a religion is true.


Why should I listen to anything the bible says when its nothing but hearsay, personal anecdotes, appeal to ignorance etc? These aren't proof just emotional manipulations and faulty logic for the guillable.
Its not a law and before you can talk about sin or any of the hundreds of unproven claims you first need to prove the existence of your so called god. If you cannot do that then whatever the bible says means jack shit, just a bedtime story


The thing is, I cannot move onto the higher tier arguments because you haven't even moved from square one. I have no choice but to keep repeating the same things for over 250+ pages. It is you who is stalling, not me.

You will not get anything else until you actually understand the basic and yet the most difficult concept: You are a sinner and in need of saving. The problem is NOT whether or not God exists, you already know He does. The problem is that you are a sinner and are rebellious towards God.

You are simply attempting to make any kind of distraction you can to not talk about your sinful nature.

You should listen to The Bible because it has --- I mean YOU HAVE proven time and time again that what is written in The Bible is true and correct. The thing is God is so powerful that He uses your very acts to prove The Bible to be true and correct. You have not convinced a single person as you don't have any alternative.
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May 28 2026 09:21pm
I don't understand how you are not able to see a contradiction. If a tribal hunts others while making exceptions for his own tribe he is applying selective conditional morality that is only relative to his own tribe members.

Science doesn't make claims something came from nothing. Nothing is just a theoretical concept not sure why christians are obsessed bringing it up. Assuming a higher power exists doesn't make it real you need to be able to prove it. If you are going to use personal anecdotes, hearsay, faulty logic and emotional persuasion techniques I am not really interested because they are not credible and don't bring me any closer to truth.

I can just as easily counter with my personal anecdotes and conclude he doesn't exist. Thats why I have been advocating you bring some empirical evidence, something that can be demonstrated, measured, replicated, concrete and objective.

If you cannot produce such proof then consider the possibility you might be wrong or mistaken. Maybe christianity is an erroneous set of claims that sells comforting ideas to guillable people in exchange for tax free donations to the Church. Perhaps its not truth but an organized cult out of thousands that preys on people's needs.


who brought it up?
its the same chit every day you dont have the foggiest what your talking about
A UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING Lawrence M. Krauss super duper 'atheist

(cue the victory music)
DUNT DUHH DAAAAAAAAA LARENCE KRAUSS. "SOLVED THE WERE DID IT ALL COME FROM" DUNT DA DUH DAAAAAAAA FROM NOTHING. NO CREATOR NEEDED

(snicker)(haha and the christian is the magic person)

This post was edited by TiStuff on May 28 2026 09:46pm
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May 28 2026 09:58pm
who brought it up?
its the same chit every day you dont have the foggiest what your talking about
A UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING Lawrence M. Krauss super duper 'atheist
https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1365217267i/11337189._UY630_SR1200,630_.jpg
(cue the victory music)
DUNT DUHH DAAAAAAAAA LARENCE KRAUSS. "SOLVED THE WERE DID IT ALL COME FROM" DUNT DA DUH DAAAAAAAA FROM NOTHING. NO CREATOR NEEDED

(snicker)(haha and the christian is the magic person)


larence krauss........................ dunt dada (more hero music) savior of the 'atheists .................... also a epstein guy ...........yay :bouncy:

This post was edited by TiStuff on May 28 2026 09:58pm
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