your both right. what happened was:

At the 2008 NATO Bucharest Summit, the US declared that Ukraine and Georgia “will become members of NATO”, but did not fast track it - no set timeline or concrete pathway for accession. there is a nuance to this.

In 2008 NATO officially welcomed Ukraine and Georgia as their future members, this is 100% clear and has been posted here countless times.

NATO expansion is real, cannot be denied and I've posted the map showing NATO expansion here countless times.

What happened really:
Ukraine: Hey NATO, why dont we hookup?
NATO: you are nice country Ukraine but not now
Ukraine: when?
NATO: cant tell
Ukraine: this year? Next year? In 5 years?
NATO: cant tell
Ukraine: but eventually we will hook up, right?
NATO: yeah oneday yes, but we dont know when.

Is it an invitation? No, its a refusal with an option to change the decision in the future.

Clearly Putin won in 2008 year. NATO refusal was to prevent giving an excuse to Russia to attack, but as a result Ukraine was left alone and Putin attacked anyway.
If NATO accepted Ukraine in 2008 then Putin wouldnt attack and we would have no war now.

Also Germany has 295 tanks, 400 artilleries, 600 aircrafts.
Russia numbers are like 20 times bigger.
So idea that Russia is scared of NATO invasion is a bullshit, absurd, especially since Russia have a lot of nukes.
Dont listen to Russian bullshit.

As I said Russia needs to attack Europe because they cannot let their own people be jelous of the european quality of life.
Also they need more people: more arms factory workers, more engineers and mechanics, more cannon fodder.
These are two real reasons that Russia attacks Europe.

This post was edited by Ironfister on Feb 9 2026 02:59am

only the dark side deals in absolutes.

NATO expansion cannot be denied. NATO has expanded multiple times despite promoses made not to expand. NATO welcomes Ukraine's + Georgia's future memberships. That's an official invitation right there and that's when the trouble started. It's not the other way around like you try to desperately frame it.

And then the rest of your BS. Russians are jealous of the superior EU and their superior way of life? Reality is that they don't want your shitty gender ideology, your woke BS, rainbow flags and all that crap, your terrible migration policies and so on. They want you to stay where you are and they don't want you to move another step East because you're not the nice guys that you claim to be

Get your facts straight.
NATO promised USSR/Warsaw pact that if USSR let east Germany free, NATO dont move their bases into east Germany.
It was a "business" agreement between NATO and USSR/Warsaw pact, regarding east Germany territory only.
In the coming years USSR collapsed, and countries chose to join NATO, so that they will be safe.

Russian Lavrov 20 years ago said that Ukraine is free to join NATO. Then Russia became a hungry "empire" again.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/ugcq2u/in_2005_german_newspaper_handelsblatt_asked/

Well, here's a tough question: can Ukrainians be called stubborn if millions of them fled not only to Europe but also to Russia, and from there, just wrapping themselves in a flag instead of going to the front to defend their country, they even support the 'Z' symbol just so the war drags on as long as possible? They do this to take advantage of refugee status and benefits, all while renting out apartments in western Ukraine for extra income to the three million draft dodgers (according to official data) who didn't have the strength or means to flee? What do you say, Ironfister?

We have already been over this twice, albeit not at length, in the Russia - Ukraine Thread. you are not the same person today that you were yesterday. Similarly, positions change. Now, YOU can say your the same person yesterday that you are today, but most ppl now accept that while you can be judged on your past capabilities, you need to demonstrate what you can do today. The same applies to Russia in its relationship with the West and Ukraine - its position changed.

The whole notion of Russia and hungry ignores the fact that Ukraine bombed its own people for 7 years and of course, Nato's eastwards aggressive expansions.

Let's get the facts strait in the most simple terms

You fucked around you found out

Not all people are the same in any country.
There are millions Ukrainians, mainly women but many MEN also, that left the warzone, but also there are bigger millions that stayed and resist.
Its not an easy decision to risk your life in war.
According to recent study, only 18% Germans are willing to fight for their country. When it come to actual war this number will probably drop in half.
So the best chance Europe has to stop Putin is now, in Ukraine, when the majority people fight back and resist.