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Sep 30 2025 04:20pm
We had thirteen mass shootings before gun reform.
Zero in 22 years since.


Ok and I live in a state with very loose gun laws and no school shootings on record.
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Sep 30 2025 05:50pm
Siegel M, Ross CS, King C 3rd. The relationship between gun ownership and firearm homicide rates in the United States, 1981-2010. Am J Public Health. 2013 Nov;103(11):2098-105. doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2013.301409. Epub 2013 Sep 12. PMID: 24028252; PMCID: PMC3828709.

"Gun ownership was a significant predictor of firearm homicide rates (incidence rate ratio = 1.009; 95% confidence interval = 1.004, 1.014). This model indicated that for each percentage point increase in gun ownership, the firearm homicide rate increased by 0.9%."


I am asking whether the presence of firearms increases the risk of death by homicide, not whether the presence of firearms increases the frequency with which they're used to commit a homicide. There's an important distinction there, we're concerned with whether more people are dying, not whether they've been strangled, stabbed, or shot.


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Sep 30 2025 06:17pm
I am asking whether the presence of firearms increases the risk of death by homicide, not whether the presence of firearms increases the frequency with which they're used to commit a homicide. There's an important distinction there, we're concerned with whether more people are dying, not whether they've been strangled, stabbed, or shot.


So here’s one example of one state. Massachusetts first started implementing comprehensive gun control in 1998 introducing the FiD card requirements and such and have since been clamping down more and more ever since. Here’s a chart of overall homicides. If we look at the plotting, homicides actually drop significantly in 1997 prior to any comprehensive gun control measures, and stay pretty steady even though they keep infringing on the rights of their citizens.

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/states/massachusetts/murder-homicide-rate-statistics


As you can see here, the homicide rate is consistent from 1997 all the way through the end of the chart. Consistent prior to major gun control changes, and throughout all of the other gun control passed over the years.

https://woburnma.gov/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SUMMARY-OF-1998-MASSACHUSETTS-GUN-CONTROL-LEGISLATION_201302140715300973.pdf

This post was edited by xxsjxx1 on Sep 30 2025 06:22pm
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Sep 30 2025 11:50pm
Not that it’s irrelevant, it’s just expected. You focus on gun violence instead of just violence. We can compare violence between countries and see for example that Serbia, Switzerland, Finland, Austria or Iceland all have rather high gun ownership figures (30-40%) and very low intentional homicide rates (around 1/100,000). On the other hand you could look at Jamaica, South Africa, Haiti or Mexico who all have less than 1/3 the gun ownership rate of the first group and 25-50 times the homicide rate.

You should have read the question he asked instead of answering something else and getting angry when people point it out.


Does the term "confounding factor" mean anything to you? I mean, I can think of one or two, in your example.
I focus on gun homicide (not violence) because that is what was relevant to the dialogue. Whether or not there is a net increase in violence per se is only relevant if you expect having guns nets a positive effect on that, despite leading to more gun-related homicide (or better yet, gun-related mortality). It's a moot point entirely, and it baffles me that you see that differently. I don't think there's anything to be had to continue this quibbling over something that is irrelevant in the first place, especially so because it's not even the original poster of the question that I am talking to. Again, the requested information can be obtained by looking at country statistics, nobody needs to reinvent the wheel for you.

I am asking whether the presence of firearms increases the risk of death by homicide, not whether the presence of firearms increases the frequency with which they're used to commit a homicide. There's an important distinction there, we're concerned with whether more people are dying, not whether they've been strangled, stabbed, or shot.


Not a problem. This took 6 seconds.
Smart R, Schell TL, Cefalu M, Morral AR. Impact on Nonfirearm Deaths of Firearm Laws Affecting Firearm Deaths: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis. Am J Public Health. 2020 Oct;110(10):e1-e9. doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2020.305808. Epub 2020 Aug 20. PMID: 32816550; PMCID: PMC7483123.


This post was edited by Leeevee on Sep 30 2025 11:52pm
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Oct 1 2025 05:03am
Does the term "confounding factor" mean anything to you? I mean, I can think of one or two, in your example.
I focus on gun homicide (not violence) because that is what was relevant to the dialogue. Whether or not there is a net increase in violence per se is only relevant if you expect having guns nets a positive effect on that, despite leading to more gun-related homicide (or better yet, gun-related mortality). It's a moot point entirely, and it baffles me that you see that differently. I don't think there's anything to be had to continue this quibbling over something that is irrelevant in the first place, especially so because it's not even the original poster of the question that I am talking to. Again, the requested information can be obtained by looking at country statistics, nobody needs to reinvent the wheel for you.



Not a problem. This took 6 seconds.
Smart R, Schell TL, Cefalu M, Morral AR. Impact on Nonfirearm Deaths of Firearm Laws Affecting Firearm Deaths: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis. Am J Public Health. 2020 Oct;110(10):e1-e9. doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2020.305808. Epub 2020 Aug 20. PMID: 32816550; PMCID: PMC7483123.


Wow it’s almost like these factors are present within the US as well. The information you offered can also be obtained by "looking at country statustics".
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Oct 2 2025 09:12pm

Not a problem. This took 6 seconds.
Smart R, Schell TL, Cefalu M, Morral AR. Impact on Nonfirearm Deaths of Firearm Laws Affecting Firearm Deaths: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis. Am J Public Health. 2020 Oct;110(10):e1-e9. doi: 10.2105/AJPH.2020.305808. Epub 2020 Aug 20. PMID: 32816550; PMCID: PMC7483123.


One of the first studies quoted in this meta analysis was a 2019 review by John J Donohue, Abhay Aneja, Kyle D Weber, in the introduction they offer it as a rebuttal to a previous study (CRIME, DETERRENCE, AND RIGHT-TO-CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUNS) by Mustard and Lott.

Mustard and Lott argued that RTC laws were advantageous on a cost basis, Donahue and colleagues argue the opposite. What are your thoughts on each?
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Oct 5 2025 11:42pm
One of the first studies quoted in this meta analysis was a 2019 review by John J Donohue, Abhay Aneja, Kyle D Weber, in the introduction they offer it as a rebuttal to a previous study (CRIME, DETERRENCE, AND RIGHT-TO-CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUNS) by Mustard and Lott.

Mustard and Lott argued that RTC laws were advantageous on a cost basis, Donahue and colleagues argue the opposite. What are your thoughts on each?


I only just read this, haven't been on much. I'm late for work and have a 12h shift today, but I'll reply when I can!
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Oct 8 2025 02:27am
One of the first studies quoted in this meta analysis was a 2019 review by John J Donohue, Abhay Aneja, Kyle D Weber, in the introduction they offer it as a rebuttal to a previous study (CRIME, DETERRENCE, AND RIGHT-TO-CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUNS) by Mustard and Lott.

Mustard and Lott argued that RTC laws were advantageous on a cost basis, Donahue and colleagues argue the opposite. What are your thoughts on each?


I have taken a look at the articles and then some. Looks like Mustard and Lott were scrutinised for their use of an unreliable statistical model, as shown by (among others) Black & Nagin (1998) where they used the same dataset. Donohue et al did not exactly invent the wheel in pointing out the study, however, it was an important step to raise alertness and academic interest in the actual statistics and robustness of this data, so all in all their conclusion may have been flawed - the domino effect has been significant in the end. Donohue et al did seem to have a much more rigorour model, which can be credited simply to better computing since Mustard and Lott's earlier study. Furthermore, their datapool seems much larger. That should increase their robustness.

These come from journals not indexed in WoS/scopus/cochrane/embase/pubmed. I cannot easily reach them (if at all) with my licenses, because they stem from a social viewpoint rather than a medical one.
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Oct 9 2025 12:24am
I have taken a look at the articles and then some. Looks like Mustard and Lott were scrutinised for their use of an unreliable statistical model, as shown by (among others) Black & Nagin (1998) where they used the same dataset. Donohue et al did not exactly invent the wheel in pointing out the study, however, it was an important step to raise alertness and academic interest in the actual statistics and robustness of this data, so all in all their conclusion may have been flawed - the domino effect has been significant in the end. Donohue et al did seem to have a much more rigorour model, which can be credited simply to better computing since Mustard and Lott's earlier study. Furthermore, their datapool seems much larger. That should increase their robustness.

These come from journals not indexed in WoS/scopus/cochrane/embase/pubmed. I cannot easily reach them (if at all) with my licenses, because they stem from a social viewpoint rather than a medical one.


I have a few criticisms.

Their methodological criticism of Lott centers around the fact that RTC states also increased incarceration and police funding. They assume that incarceration rates should decrease crime, and if it decreases by less than they'd expect they point to RTC laws as the proximate cause.

The problem is that increased police funding, rising incarceration rates, and a push for relaxed law on civilian carry are all responses to increased crime. I don't see the authors acknowledge this at all. When crime is rising, the public might demand an all of the above approach specifically because of the rapid perceived increase in violent crime.

In another case, the author's criticize Lott for some of their model outcomes. In one case, Lott concluded that non-Black / non-White men of a certain age produced negative outcomes re: RTC, but women in the same category produced positive outcomes that outweighed the men. The authors conclude this is nonsensical and dismiss it as noise, but it seems to match what we know about male / female crime rates in general, and empowering women with the means to defend themselves against otherwise physically dominant men is an often used argument for RTC laws. The authors unfortunately didn't seem to think of it.

The authors otherwise rely heavily on anecdotes, even ones which seem to make little sense. The Goetz subway shooting stands out as a case where the shooter was explicitly denied a RTC permit (and was later convicted on related charges) while simultaneously preventing a robbery. The Zimmerman case also makes an appearance, and the authors suggest that Zimmerman might have been asking for it, and Martin never would have assaulted him had he stayed home. That's probably true, but the broader question is whether we're ok with a world where crime is rampant and citizens hide in their houses.

The article mentions 31 reported instances between 2007-2017 of a permit holder (16,000,000 by their estimate) using a firearm to shoot 3+ individuals. It's begging the question, how many shootings of 3+ individuals were committed by individuals without a RTC permit? Is 3.1 per year significant, or a very low rate vis-a-vis the population at large?

The authors spend a paragraph discussing pushback on policing spurring violent crime. Comey is quoted as a source. This misrepresents the argument the FBI was making, which is that being overly critical of police makes police less likely to intervene in preventing crime. The authors interpret this as police being afraid of RTC permit holders, which is simply bizarre. They also argue that involuntary discharge and the prevalence of RTC permits consumes police time, but they don't quantify what percentage of time is supposedly being consumed, nor do they square that with the fact that crime is predominately in areas with relatively strict carry laws (e.g. municipalities).

This post was edited by bogie160 on Oct 9 2025 12:25am
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Oct 20 2025 12:49pm
I have a few criticisms.

Their methodological criticism of Lott centers around the fact that RTC states also increased incarceration and police funding. They assume that incarceration rates should decrease crime, and if it decreases by less than they'd expect they point to RTC laws as the proximate cause.

The problem is that increased police funding, rising incarceration rates, and a push for relaxed law on civilian carry are all responses to increased crime. I don't see the authors acknowledge this at all. When crime is rising, the public might demand an all of the above approach specifically because of the rapid perceived increase in violent crime.

In another case, the author's criticize Lott for some of their model outcomes. In one case, Lott concluded that non-Black / non-White men of a certain age produced negative outcomes re: RTC, but women in the same category produced positive outcomes that outweighed the men. The authors conclude this is nonsensical and dismiss it as noise, but it seems to match what we know about male / female crime rates in general, and empowering women with the means to defend themselves against otherwise physically dominant men is an often used argument for RTC laws. The authors unfortunately didn't seem to think of it.

The authors otherwise rely heavily on anecdotes, even ones which seem to make little sense. The Goetz subway shooting stands out as a case where the shooter was explicitly denied a RTC permit (and was later convicted on related charges) while simultaneously preventing a robbery. The Zimmerman case also makes an appearance, and the authors suggest that Zimmerman might have been asking for it, and Martin never would have assaulted him had he stayed home. That's probably true, but the broader question is whether we're ok with a world where crime is rampant and citizens hide in their houses.

The article mentions 31 reported instances between 2007-2017 of a permit holder (16,000,000 by their estimate) using a firearm to shoot 3+ individuals. It's begging the question, how many shootings of 3+ individuals were committed by individuals without a RTC permit? Is 3.1 per year significant, or a very low rate vis-a-vis the population at large?

The authors spend a paragraph discussing pushback on policing spurring violent crime. Comey is quoted as a source. This misrepresents the argument the FBI was making, which is that being overly critical of police makes police less likely to intervene in preventing crime. The authors interpret this as police being afraid of RTC permit holders, which is simply bizarre. They also argue that involuntary discharge and the prevalence of RTC permits consumes police time, but they don't quantify what percentage of time is supposedly being consumed, nor do they square that with the fact that crime is predominately in areas with relatively strict carry laws (e.g. municipalities).


Understandable critisisms and I appreciate your further input. I cannot fully respond in kind because I am poorly equiped in social fields to read beyond the statistics and, as mentioned, do not have access to these articles most of the time with medical licenses.

I do think if a lot of different authors seem to disagree with Lott et al, while not all arguments may have been appropriately addressed in their response studies, it is often so that an initial study in a field usually leads to further and more robust academic workup to verify or deny certain hypotheses - one such example is that of thimerosal and autism, a very active topic ^^. Not addressing the arguments provided in full also does not mean that the end conclusion of the statistical workup is flawed per se - there's just no certainty, but most studies seem to disagree with Lott (in fact, I cannot find a lot that were in favour). The lack of robustness and their poor lack of variables have been addressed in excess. Lott & Mustard's work provided important work that led up to further study and for the first time gave something in more quantitative sense, but the conclusion, I believe, is flawed, and for me adequately proven to be so.
I suppose if you want a more thorough answer on the subject, it is best to simply contact specialists in the field. I'm almost certain that most people who work in social study fields will very happily speak on the matter with you.
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