your scientific process is whipping some lame excuse out of your "no free will" imagination

place wasnt made for you
to you it looks dark and empty. you only see 0.04% electromagnetic spectrum. practically blind considering the possibilities. still feel boastful?
The visible light range for the human eye is between 380 nm and 760 nm (approximately 0.04% of the total electromagnetic spectrum). The average human eye responds to light wavelengths in the interval of 0.4 μm to 0.7 μm. This range is crucial for our perception of color and brightness.
Wikipedia
+1

Okay great, so your point is what exactly? You assume the invisible rest is full of things only god sees and enjoys?
You assume stuff that is far away from anything people can comprehend or understand, verify, falsify or test in any way and then assume on top of your assumption, then assume again and at the same time laugh about assumptions others make based on scientific conclusions?

How can you assume stuff like that while laughing about evolution or the big bang?

The mind of a religious person is honestly astounding. The constant wishful thinking and lying to yourself about your future after death is making you as blind and resistant to logic as possible. Its crazy.

This post was edited by Saurod on Jul 31 2025 02:40am

your the one that was deciding a bunch of stuff with your no free will imagination. all i did was give counter possibilities and show you didnt know scripture of which you claim to have read twice. seems like all 'atheists claim vast knowledge of scripture but fail 100% of the time when it gets tested? i suppose they just say it because it makes them sound smart and intimidating but once it gets tested they turn out to be wee lil putty tats ............ mew

This post was edited by TiStuff on Jul 31 2025 02:53am

There is no "No free will imagination". You just refuse to listen to me.

I try again. My conclusion of "No free will" is based on what we (we meaning we humans) know about this Universe.

What we know is that all naturalistic processes are deterministic. Except for quantum movements, which are - as of what we (meaning we humans again, not me and my friends) know right now - really random. But the question is do they affect decisions or consciousness in a significant way?

The mainstream scientific view and most neuroscientists consider the brain to be a macroscopic, mostly deterministic system.
It operates at warm temperatures (~37 °C), where thermal noise vastly outweighs quantum effects.
Quantum randomness tends to average out at large scales, just like in weather systems or computer hardware.

So quantum movements are most likely not influencial to human consciousness - and even if they would, they would just add a random layer on top of a deterministic one - which again, doesn equal anything close to free will.

So that is where I am coming from scientifically. I hope you can see that this ia not a claim and also not a believe, but just a conclusion based on scientific knowledge. Thats why I say "Change My Mind", because I am open for discussion, okay?
Things like "You posted this, so you have free will" arent counter arguments. Theres nothing to discuss as its just an expression of human experience. There is no room for discussion on this foundation.

I also stated that I am not on the side of free will if a god would exist. Omnipotence would make free will logically impossible in my view and my understanding of logic, which is why that is my stance. But as you can see in this thread I am always ready to explain why this is my stance.

You act like I just claim stuff. I dont think I just claimed stuff, I made my points as clear as I could and I tried to explain them as detailed and reasonable as I could.
Claims are: God exist, free will exist and so on. I am not saying I am right, because that would mean I could prove it. What I am saying is: It is reasonable to think what i think, because I could explain it to a certain degree and couldnt explain another possibility to the same degree.

So in an attempt to come back to a respectful and serious dialogue. Can you maybe respect where I am coming from and acknowledge that I am not just blindly throwing claims around trying to provoke people?

This post was edited by Saurod on Jul 31 2025 03:36am

if there is no free will you cant know anything

See, thats exactly what I was pointing out in that post. These argumentations lack any explanation. What you say is an assumption based on what you think is true based on your experience and your way of thinking.

Not having free doesnt have to be the same as being a dead rock without any sense of will, humor, knowledge.

What you point out is philosophical, but not scientific.

Maybe our will is as free as possible? Maybe its the closest thing to free will in this universe? Maybe its a perfect illusion? Free Will, the Me-Feeling we all have, consciousness, these might all just be determinstic constructs, scientific states. I am not saying this is it, but I would also never say something is a certain way because I just feel that way.

There are things we can measure. Things we can test. And that is what I try to focus on.

Chat GPT also knows things without having free will. I agree that it of course isnt conscious, but who says that consciousness is not just a far more complex, biological version of the primitive AI inventions from today?

We cant find an objective answer to any philosophical question based on philosophy alone, but we can look at science and see what we can conclude and build on it.

This post was edited by Saurod on Jul 31 2025 03:59am

very generous of you to grant yourself limited free will. but even with limited free will there is nothing you can propose and believe it to be reliable

maybe we simply are not on the same page
maybe we need to pause here and agree on a definition of free will. i will let you chose the definition

action = reaction
out rules free will

What I personally mean when I say i conclude there is no free will, is no free will based on what we humans in general mean when we use the term. Or at least what I think most mean.

This would be my definition, maybe you agree with it:

Free will is making decisions without a deterministic process or an omnipotent power forcing us to make them.

No free will - in the human context - is making decisions, forced by a deterministic process or an omnipotent power, without us realizing that we are forced into making them.

So it would feel the exact same, no matter if free will is real or not.

What I would totally agree on would be the opinion that it doesnt matter if it feels the exact same. Totally valid to say that. Its like Cypher in Matrix not caring if the world around him is "real" or not as long as it feels real.

This post was edited by Saurod on Jul 31 2025 07:08am

link me to a definition of free will that you accept. or i will just provide one

This post was edited by TiStuff on Jul 31 2025 08:22am