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Jul 21 2025 03:06pm
Sharing the Hindus view and Vivekananda's since I shared Buddha's and you won't address either just make fun of me for trying to explain advanced philosophy in two sentences when a trillion texts were written that you are too lazy to have read.

As Hinduism is primarily a conglomerate of different religious traditions,[136] there is no one accepted view on the concept of free will. Within the predominant schools of Hindu philosophy there are two main opinions. The Advaita (monistic) schools generally believe in a fate-based approach, and the Dvaita (dualistic) schools are proponents for the theory of free will.[137] The different schools' understandings are based upon their conceptions of the nature of the supreme Being (see Brahman, Paramatma and Ishvara) and how the individual Self (atma or jiva) dictates, or is dictated by karma within the illusory existence of maya.

In both Dvaita and Advaita schools, and also in the many other traditions within Hinduism, there is a strong belief in destiny[138] and that both the past and future are known, or viewable, by certain saints or mystics as well as by the supreme being (Ishvara) in traditions where Ishvara is worshipped as an all-knowing being. In the Bhagavad Gita, the Avatar, Krishna says to Arjuna:

I know everything that has happened in the past, all that is happening in the present, and all things that are yet to come.[139]
However, this belief in destiny is not necessarily believed to rule out the existence of free will, as in some cases both free will and destiny are believed to exist simultaneously.[140][141]

The Bhagavad Gita also states:

Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone's sinful or pious activities (Bhagavad Gita 5.15)
From wherever the mind wanders due to its flickering and unsteady nature, one must certainly withdraw it and bring it back under the control of the self (Bhagavad Gita 6.26), indicating that God does not control anyone's will, and that it is possible to control the mind.
Different approaches
The six orthodox (astika) schools of thought in Hindu philosophy give differing opinions: In the Samkhya, for instance, matter is without any freedom, and Self lacks any ability to control the unfolding of matter. The only real freedom (kaivalya) consists in realizing the ultimate separateness of matter and self. For the Yoga school, only Ishvara is truly free, and its freedom is also distinct from all feelings, thoughts, actions, or wills, and is thus not at all a freedom of will. The metaphysics of the Nyaya and Vaisheshika schools strongly suggest a belief in determinism, but do not seem to make explicit claims about determinism or free will.[142]

A quotation from Swami Vivekananda, a Vedantist, offers an example of the worry about free will in the Hindu tradition.

Therefore, we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here.[143]


On the other hand, Mimamsa, Vedanta, and the more theistic versions of Hinduism such as Shaivism and Vaishnavism have often emphasized the importance of free will. For example, in the Bhagavad Gita the living beings (jivas) are described as being of a higher nature who have the freedom to exploit the inferior material nature (prakrti):

Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.[144]

Within Vedanta, Madhvacharya argues that souls do not have any free will as Lord Vishnu prescribes all their actions.[145]

The doctrine of Karma in Hinduism requires both that we pay for our actions in the past, and that our actions in the present be free enough to allow us to deserve the future reward or punishment that we will receive for our present actions. The Advaitin philosopher Chandrashekhara Bharati Swaminah puts it this way:

Fate is past karma, free-will is present karma. Both are really one, that is, karma, though they may differ in the matter of time. There can be no conflict when they are really one. Fate, as I told you, is the resultant of the past exercise of your free-will. By exercising your free-will in the past, you brought on the resultant fate. By exercising your free-will in the present, I want you to wipe out your past record if it hurts you, or to add to it if you find it enjoyable. In any case, whether for acquiring more happiness or for reducing misery, you have to exercise your free-will in the present.[146]


I don't critique any of those, it's more of a very simple question - how can I choose to move my arm if no free will exists? I think you're making the argument for determinism - but this has been disproven, only recently in the last 100 years

These old texts have been supplanted/invalidated by more advanced philosophy

/e reading more closely you're making an argument for determinism, but you're invoking the appeal to authority fallacy of these texts

This post was edited by El1te on Jul 21 2025 03:13pm
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Jul 21 2025 03:13pm
Sharing the Hindus view and Vivekananda's since I shared Buddha's and you won't address either just make fun of me for trying to explain advanced philosophy in two sentences when a trillion texts were written that you are too lazy to have read.


Quote
since I shared Buddha's and you won't address either

this implies you (written here as I) is an a distinct self/agent that chose to share something. the rest of the sentence directly implies that "you" (a distinct self/agent in this case meaning me) have the choice or free will to address something, and are choosing not to ("won't"). if there's no free will, then "you" cannot "won't" do anything... it would simply be a predetermined event.

your language and meaning demands free will and the self to exist.

this is central to everything and all attempts at distraction are an evasion.

the rest of your single opening sentence is completely full of metaphysical baggage that contradicts your own worldview.

it's in every reply you make, every thought you utter while holding the contradictory idea that the "you" and "your" choices aren't real.
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Jul 21 2025 05:52pm
this implies you (written here as I) is an a distinct self/agent that chose to share something. the rest of the sentence directly implies that "you" (a distinct self/agent in this case meaning me) have the choice or free will to address something, and are choosing not to ("won't"). if there's no free will, then "you" cannot "won't" do anything... it would simply be a predetermined event.

your language and meaning demands free will and the self to exist.

this is central to everything and all attempts at distraction are an evasion.

the rest of your single opening sentence is completely full of metaphysical baggage that contradicts your own worldview.

it's in every reply you make, every thought you utter while holding the contradictory idea that the "you" and "your" choices aren't real.


That's because you refuse to believe that a person can practice an Abrahamic faith while using an Eastern philosophy to supplement it and by the way I never once stated. "I one hundred percent believe free will exists or vice versa". I was making fun of the two of you because you were in one of those rudimentary arguments that a Christian and Atheist get into around free will. I merely added my opinion having studied multiple disciplines. You at least studied and know Christianity but Saurod did not study Atheism or Buddhism and how the very question he asked has 9000 volumes of text of literal debate dialogs between Hindus and Buddhist.

Your inability to acknowledge Siddhartha Gautama(Buddha) lived in 600 BCE and his "thought processes" played a role in the develop of Jesus thought process put you in some sort of conundrum I don't know why you literally will not answer a single question and then repeat the same platitude. Please God don't start talking like Saurod I want to know how you as an individual person feel not what Christian doctrine told you to tell me.

Whose bringing substance to this conversation now. Me showing you causality and how Christians can't do basic math. 1000bce is not 33AD

I am telling you that you can believe two things simultaneously because "Genesis" didn't happen in a vacuum and we are all like I said the same as whatever the universe is. That's god(formless) not your patriarchal male god who built the world in 7 days and you believe "in your head" along with the billions of other Abrahamic folk(myself included).

When you read the Bible your brain and whatever "God" is are one because you believe that initial bullshit(everyone does because of their birth few reject the religion/culture they were raised in). One of the many aspects of causality.

But I'm done conversating and throwing my opinions out there only to get rhetorical retarded statements back from you

at least will fucking try to see that in Buddhism/Hinduism this question literally has 10,000 iterations and arguments going back and fourth and no one is exactly CONCRETE/ABSOLUTE on things in the EAST because they take a long well thought out logical approach not a "God gave me my hand and I can raise it up and down right now and he can"t stop me that"s free will". Sounds like bullshit and that's what you said so far as your argument. I can raise my hand up and down so I have free will because I don't have too.

I just threw Buddhist and Hindu thoughts on it because they thought about it intensely for a 1000 years. Like I said they debated this long before Jesus was crucified and I know Christians hang there hat on that for whatever reason.

The deepest truths surrounding free will are found not in the Abrahmic texts but in the thousands of eastern texts from which like I said the "Abrahmic borrowed". Indo Aryans ring a bell?
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Jul 21 2025 06:16pm
That's because you refuse to believe that a person can practice an Abrahamic faith while using an Eastern philosophy to supplement it and by the way I never once stated. "I one hundred percent believe free will exists or vice versa". I was making fun of the two of you because you were in one of those rudimentary arguments that a Christian and Atheist get into around free will. I merely added my opinion having studied multiple disciplines. You at least studied and know Christianity but Saurod did not study Atheism or Buddhism and how the very question he asked has 9000 volumes of text of literal debate dialogs between Hindus and Buddhist.

Your inability to acknowledge Siddhartha Gautama(Buddha) lived in 600 BCE and his "thought processes" played a role in the develop of Jesus thought process put you in some sort of conundrum I don't know why you literally will not answer a single question and then repeat the same platitude. Please God don't start talking like Saurod I want to know how you as an individual person feel not what Christian doctrine told you to tell me.

Whose bringing substance to this conversation now. Me showing you causality and how Christians can't do basic math. 1000bce is not 33AD

I am telling you that you can believe two things simultaneously because "Genesis" didn't happen in a vacuum and we are all like I said the same as whatever the universe is. That's god(formless) not your patriarchal male god who built the world in 7 days and you believe "in your head" along with the billions of other Abrahamic folk(myself included).

When you read the Bible your brain and whatever "God" is are one because you believe that initial bullshit(everyone does because of their birth few reject the religion/culture they were raised in). One of the many aspects of causality.

But I'm done conversating and throwing my opinions out there only to get rhetorical retarded statements back from you ^majorblood

^El1te at least will fucking try to see that in Buddhism/Hinduism this question literally has 10,000 iterations and arguments going back and fourth and no one is exactly CONCRETE/ABSOLUTE on things in the EAST because they take a long well thought out logical approach not a "God gave me my hand and I can raise it up and down right now and he can"t stop me that"s free will". Sounds like bullshit and that's what you said so far as your argument. I can raise my hand up and down so I have free will because I don't have too.

I just threw Buddhist and Hindu thoughts on it because they thought about it intensely for a 1000 years. Like I said they debated this long before Jesus was crucified and I know Christians hang there hat on that for whatever reason.

The deepest truths surrounding free will are found not in the Abrahmic texts but in the thousands of eastern texts from which like I said the "Abrahmic borrowed". Indo Aryans ring a bell?


I too am Christian but seek knowledge & inspiration from other sources, namely Chan Buddhism as I am beginning to study & practice Shaolin Kung Fu, and recognize syncretism between pre-Christ philosophies & the revelation of Christ. My principal criticized of old philosophies is that they are very selfish, whilst Christianity fulfills their personal instruction & directive while also valuing others (your neighbours). Reading the old literature can be considered supplementary to the Bible as it can help provide insight into esoteric truths that are given by the Bible but not understood by the reader.

But the existence of free will has never been in question - only with respect to the determinist position, which classical physics (but not quantum, which has supplanted it) supports. Chan Buddhism strongly emphasizes self-effort (as is obviously necessary for martial arts & any other discipline) which is by categorical definition free will. Free will has never been disputed in this manner.

I'm also an Arminian Protestant (which is the vast majority of North American Protestants) which strongly emphasizes free will and soul competency.

This post was edited by El1te on Jul 21 2025 06:17pm
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Jul 21 2025 06:36pm
I too am Christian but seek knowledge & inspiration from other sources, namely Chan Buddhism as I am beginning to study & practice Shaolin Kung Fu, and recognize syncretism between pre-Christ philosophies & the revelation of Christ. My principal criticized of old philosophies is that they are very selfish, whilst Christianity fulfills their personal instruction & directive while also valuing others (your neighbours). Reading the old literature can be considered supplementary to the Bible as it can help provide insight into esoteric truths that are given by the Bible but not understood by the reader.

But the existence of free will has never been in question - only with respect to the determinist position, which classical physics (but not quantum, which has supplanted it) supports. Chan Buddhism strongly emphasizes self-effort (as is obviously necessary for martial arts & any other discipline) which is by categorical definition free will. Free will has never been disputed in this manner.

I'm also an Arminian Protestant (which is the vast majority of North American Protestants) which strongly emphasizes free will and soul competency.


Well said and you could see how someone who practices Vedanta believes what they believe. Do I as a Catholic believe every tenet of the Bible of course not you heard me bash it to shit.

I believe in the ACTIONS/WORK aka "to do to act" that's what "karma" actually means in Sanskrit "to do to act"((((Actions speak louder then words)))) and their are 3 types of Yoga. Jana yoga(scripture to god). Karma yoga(action to God). Bhakti Yoga(devotion to God through family or other means).

Scripture always leads imo to spiritual egotism where the person thinks because they read "gods words" they are a prophet or somehow "beyond you". But ask someone to scrub a toilet, mop floors, and do all the mundane tedious task with a smile on their face few can do it.

Because I know I'm God(Brahman) and always doings God's work I never have any issues. Unbelievably great physical shape because I cut acres of grass everyday as part of my karma yoga. The entire time I cut grass I dwell on God alone and the work gets done easily. Is that free will if you know your God and God alone acts. Was "I" as the ego acting? Was "Stephen" the name given to me at birth acting or was God acting? Questions to ponder!

edit: When "God" gave me a 2nd chance I didn't feel like I had free will it felt pre determined. God literally said to me "Your time has not yet come you have much left to do" as if "he/it" KNEW what I was doing, had done, and will do. Where's the free will if God already knows before your action all outcomes?

This post was edited by SwamiVivekananda on Jul 21 2025 06:42pm
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Jul 22 2025 05:34am
you have moved the goalpost and your claim is now that science "is humanities most successful method of understanding the world"


Yes, humanities most succesful method. Thats right. I had a week of desperately needed vacation by the way which si why I didnt respond.
I will try to hop onto the discussion again...although you guys are probably done with it already.
If so thats fair, but I of course wanna answer what was thrown at me these last couple days :)
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Jul 22 2025 05:42am
You are confusing certainty with necessity

Your choice of X remains free (you could have chosen otherwise), but because God is omniscient, He certainly knows what you will freely choose.

This is understood in modal logic as not "alethically necessary"

I'll express it using modal logic

KGP: God knows that P (what you will do in the future or future proposition P)

¬□A​FP : it is not alethically necessary

⋄A​FP∧⋄A​¬FP : The event itself remains contingent in its origin, meaning you could have chosen otherwise.


You still act as if god was an outside spectator and not the creator of everything. Thats why you dont understand what I say. God isnt certain, he KNOWS. He knows it because he made it..
If I am certain, that i will blink at least another 5 times today then I still dont know. I could die the moment I have that thought its never knowledge. God has knowledge, he isnt just certain. He has knowledge because he is responsable for what will happen. Thats what I say. What he knows is a necessity. Its his will.
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Jul 22 2025 05:43am
and we learn the place is super natural

o umm (throw up hands) nothing i can do i dont have free will

nobody has as much faith/trust as a 'atheist/antitheist/'disbeliever the penalty here for being wrong and we get "meh" for a answer? thats a mighty faith in ones choice.

ever consider pascals wager? i dont mean taking the wager as thats not really possible. but have you ever thought of in in a academic way? have you heard of it?


Yes of course I heard of it, who hasnt? Its nonsense par excellence.
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Jul 22 2025 05:48am
Absolute Nonsense


I hope you understand that I prefer to speak to the Others instead of you. The other people in here - while disagreeing with me fundamentally - at least have something to say. You dont.

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Jul 22 2025 11:52am
Yes of course I heard of it, who hasnt? Its nonsense par excellence.


nobody more sure of themselves than a 'atheist thus proving scripture
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