Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ Jul 19 2025 10:30am)

1) God alone exists. God is all things with form and without form(living things and inanimate objects). There is no separation from existence itself and only the ego makes such a distinction. The ego has to be formed and you are told that you and "God" are separate. This is how the Abrahamic religions tend to view God and so naturally atheists like yourself only refute the Abrahamic god because you are ignorant of the other half of the human race who quietly has worshipped their own "version" of "God/No God" and Buddhist and Hindus argued for HUNDREDS of years about the very question you are asking, "free will". There are entire libraries filled with debates between some of the best philosophers to ever live. None of which you know and clearly most the people on this sub forum are white and subscribe to an Abrahamic centric worldview.

2) The ego does not exist. It is a fabrication of the mind. The mind a fabrication and instrument of the brain. This is why they tell you to "follow your heart" because the SECOND you THINK you've already lost it.

3) Math and science are nothing more then the human being trying to think there is something "new" to be discovered and that because "we" created a system of numbers/letters to communicate with each other doesn't automatically mean are science is "God's science". Any scientist who thinks through "observation" of random events is some sort of pure absolute science is ignorant. All science is are theories/hypothesis surrounding observable events. What about the non-observable?
What about the "black matter" that constitutes a major portion of the universe???? Did you know all of our science up until this point as been based on the fact "black matter" didn't exist.

4) Stephen Hawking famously said, "How can we make an absolute proof if we just found out "x" percent of the universe is made of a "variable" that was never a part of the equation. He admitted all science is false is we've been using a "math and science" that doesn't include all the variables.

5) There are intelligent philosophers who discuss "free will" and its interesting to here both sides. I believe you don't actually have free will but only the illusion of it. You feel it when you think you did everything right and then something terrible happens out of the blue. It's suppose to humble you and show you "You are not in control" "Whatever "god" is is in control and always has been". God is the beginning and the end and everything in between.

Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ Jul 19 2025 10:30am)

1) God alone exists. God is all things with form and without form(living things and inanimate objects). There is no separation from existence itself and only the ego makes such a distinction. The ego has to be formed and you are told that you and "God" are separate. This is how the Abrahamic religions tend to view God and so naturally atheists like yourself only refute the Abrahamic god because you are ignorant of the other half of the human race who quietly has worshipped their own "version" of "God/No God" and Buddhist and Hindus argued for HUNDREDS of years about the very question you are asking, "free will". There are entire libraries filled with debates between some of the best philosophers to ever live. None of which you know and clearly most the people on this sub forum are white and subscribe to an Abrahamic centric worldview.

2) The ego does not exist. It is a fabrication of the mind. The mind a fabrication and instrument of the brain. This is why they tell you to "follow your heart" because the SECOND you THINK you've already lost it.

3) Math and science are nothing more then the human being trying to think there is something "new" to be discovered and that because "we" created a system of numbers/letters to communicate with each other doesn't automatically mean are science is "God's science". Any scientist who thinks through "observation" of random events is some sort of pure absolute science is ignorant. All science is are theories/hypothesis surrounding observable events. What about the non-observable?
What about the "black matter" that constitutes a major portion of the universe???? Did you know all of our science up until this point as been based on the fact "black matter" didn't exist.

4) Stephen Hawking famously said, "How can we make an absolute proof if we just found out "x" percent of the universe is made of a "variable" that was never a part of the equation. He admitted all science is false is we've been using a "math and science" that doesn't include all the variables.

5) There are intelligent philosophers who discuss "free will" and its interesting to here both sides. I believe you don't actually have free will but only the illusion of it. You feel it when you think you did everything right and then something terrible happens out of the blue. It's suppose to humble you and show you "You are not in control" "Whatever "god" is is in control and always has been". God is the beginning and the end and everything in between.

Quote (TiStuff @ 19 Jul 2025 17:13)

just some thoughts that form while reading your post (maybe cheated a little bit but its still inspired :)
1. John 1:3
King James Version
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
2. Romans 8:5-6
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
3. Ecclesiastes 1:9
“The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.”
King James Version (KJV)
4. Proverbs 3:5
King James Version
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6.Revelation 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Quote (majorblood @ 19 Jul 2025 21:45)

can you briefly respond that if there is no free will or a self how morality can exist in a meaningful way

if free will or the self doesn't exist how can we arrive at knowledge

Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ Jul 20 2025 09:56am)

Thanks for sharing the scripture itself! Like I've said many times in the past you can read the Bible a million times and each time a new truth will be revealed to you and that's part of "Revelation". When you read the Bible it's suppose to "reveal" something to you. I'm not sure if it's in the book of John but I'm pretty sure he says something along the lines of, "The Bible is not meant to be a "guidebook" on how to live but rather it is suppose to reveal something deep within you. This is why I often say scripture of any religious text means different things to different peoples. It can mean ABSOLUTELY nothing at all ^Saurod and in the same tongue contain the totality of all of existence itself in all its glory. Something you may have read and consider to be mundane, non-sensical, and borderline illogical may have given the greatest form of "meaning" some other person has ever felt in their entire life. Scripture can give meaning to life when it seems like there is no meaning/purpose behind existence itself.

&&& I've found that to be true in my own life that you can read one line of scripture from the Bible, Bhagavad Gita, and other major religious texts and be profoundly changed. You can also read the whole thing and non "get it" because it is not meant for everyone. Therefore when someone denounces any religious texts at all I just consider them ignorant because every text written contains a grains of knowledge/wisdom that are essentially unfathomable and must be EXPERIENCED/FELT not intellectually discerned.



Great question!

Because the ego does not actually exist the natural implication is that there is no "good and evil" only the mind makes it so. This means there is no free will because as soon as you "identify" with the ego you essentially forfeit the "true knowledge" you were given at birth. Instead of trusting the universe that spawned you we hold on to silly stories that we as "humans" use to "navigate existence". These are "methodologies".

Knowledge is the ability to "differentiate" and realize that there is no such thing as "separation". Words/symbols/numbers all just meaningless mumblings and rustling of the human mind. The human mind/ego doesn't exist and that's why philosophers in the east often say things like, "Silence is golden"////"The thought free state is the only real state of existence"///"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God((no separation)). The mind/ego is a metaphysical representation of what Abrahmic folks call the "devil/satan/jin" because your mind will convince you that some worldly thing means more then being with God alone. When you've read all the scripture and it's done what should remain is "God alone" which is actually "you". You are God but not the "patriarchal zeus god". The formless god.

What then happens is you finally stop "lying to yourself" and "pretending" you "know all things" and you finally "let go" knowing "God/existence" was always in "control" and that your feeble attempt to even try and understand "GOD" is foolish.

This then becomes the great dilemma between Buddhism and Hinduism and is a major part of their "epic debates".

Knowing you are "God" and that "God alone acts" why even do anything at all? If there is no good and evil who cares if I do bad? This is exactly what Swami Vivekananda disagreed vehemently with about the East. So you know your God but you want to sit in a cave or temple and dwell on God all day everyday. You are in a constant state of "pure bliss consciousness". Good for you but good for YOU only. Essentially saying to Buddhist that they are selfish and instead of doing the "hard work of God" they just become "spiritually lazy". The Abrahamic were given that meaning/purpose in their foundational scripture.

In Hinduism the 3 major "gods" of their triumvirate are Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva much similar to the Christian Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Brahma the creator god responsible for bringing the universe into existence(Father), Vishnu the preserver god tasked with maintaining cosmic order and protecting the world(Son), Shiva the destroyer God who destroys in order to recreate and transform(Holy Spirit).

So after a person realizes God(Brahman)(Atman) and the oneness of all things he also knows "free will does not exist" "there is no such thing as morality" and only the mind/ego is making it so. So what is the goal of all scripture? Disolution of the ego so one can have a pure bond with whatever "god" is/means to them. Your mind will constantly impede your realization of God. The mind is a road block on your way to realizing God and people foolishly give all their energy to that name/ego which Jesus/Buddha etc. would say is "not real".

Jesus died on the cross taking all previous and future sins because he KNEW god his father he didn't just believe.

Buddha said he would reincarnate and come back to Earth until human suffering comes to an end(He knew the human condition could not be removed, the tendencies of man remain not the name)

True knowledge is realization because you are no longer looking for God/No God and attaching to any philosophy/concepts at all. The thought free state is the only real state. Why though are people scared to be alone in their own head? Why do people think just because human beings learned how to read/write/communicate in symbols/numbers that we know something.

That's the hubris of the Abrahamic faith though and as a Catholic I disagree with your statement that "India is a shit hole because they didn't have Jesus". India never needed to conquer others in the name of Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ didn't teach them anything they didn't already know. Understand chronological time and that Buddha lived 600 years before Jesus Christ and said virtually the same things. Foolishly the Christian, Muslim, and Jew think their "IMAGE" of "GOD" is the one true image and that's why they KILL for their God and it's why people of "Eastern faiths" think the Abrahamic folk are literally retarded in that sense. "My God is better then your God". How about the Bible was written by learned scribes and based off the existing "spiritual methodologies" of that time.

It is not the Indians who will bring in the "end times" it is the dumbass Abrahamic folk who can't ever be content with their "Gods will" over "free will".

How knowledge can be present if free will and the "self" doesn't exist. Because true "knowledge" is "God" and most people don't do their due diligence to understand the difference between the Abrahamic and Eastern faiths.

I do agree with ^Saurod on some things because he is at least attempting to discern something. He is attempting to reveal something to himself. He is searching. If he was willing to read the Bible to try and understand from a place of "no bias" he would be profoundly changed because like you ^majorblood ^Tistuff know most these people who think God "doesn't exist" or "free will doesn't exist" care more about the concept of "no God" being true because they seek validation like any human being.

What I'm telling Saurod is that he can derive meaning/knowledge without having ever read a single line of scripture. That's why he's agnostic/atheist because he hasn't gone through the process of discernment and came to a more "concrete/absolute" answer for himself.

Just like you guys correct me when I misinterpret scripture I will correct ^Saurod when he makes a baseless claim with no argument/evidence and just says "platitudes".

These are only my opinions. Nothing I'm saying is some sort of absolute. I've read many philosophical texts and religious scripture because I wanted to know/understand God from all perspectives and that includes "no God" which actually from a conceptual standpoint has to show more evidence and arguments to prove that "god does not exist" "free will does not exist" because most human beings believe there was a creative source to our human existence/consciousness permeating throughout the universe and that God gave us free will as sort of a double edged sword that one could use to do good or bad, but like I said "good" and "bad" don't exist they are words created by human beings to attempt to convey meaning or in Sanskrit "MA" to MEASURE the world around us. It is hard to admit there is no such thing as good and evil when you literally "feel a sensation". It's hard to say there is no such thing as free will when you are seemingly makings hundreds of choices a day. It's hard to say there is no such thing as morality because we've made "rules and laws". These laws/rules were not made by the "creator of the universe" they were created by man to control man and the "I" in the Bible is the "god of man".

I don't believe in the "magic man in the sky" that the Abrahamic do. I believe in the words and actions of Jesus Christ himself not what the scribes wrote to derail you from the raw truth.

Serious question ^majorblood do you believe that the things Jesus Christ said were "unique and new" because I can point you to Sanskrit written 1000 years before he walked the Earth that's more "profound" then what he said.

When Jesus wandered in the desert supposedly for those "missing years" it is commonly said amongst Easterners that Jesus physically walked East until he tasted Buddhism. He was called the LAMB because he was "fair skinned" and he went to multiple "religious places" and upon his return to Jerusalem he then KNEW he was God and MEANT it. This is why Hindus/Buddhist say "Jesus Christ is God incarnate in the physical form" because he wasn't just talking the talk he literally meant everything he said in his bones.

It's why Jesus Christ will always be my Lord and Savior regardless of the idiosyncratic philosophies I use to better my relationship with him along the way.

edit: I cannot answer your question in it's totality because I myself am a conflicted ignorant human being. I would be lying and being intellectually dishonest if I said I could answer one of the most fundamental philosophical questions. Like I said there are debates between Hindus and Buddhist regarding this and it makes up a major portion of Buddhist concepts. It's why I keep pressing ^Saurod to read into it because that's where Hindus/Buddhist/Sikhs/etc. each gave their strongest argument...none of which Saurod has stated even remotely correct. That's ok he admitted he is not well read in these disciplines.

Quote (majorblood @ 20 Jul 2025 13:08)

I don't think you really addressed my question or I missed it, can you make the response brief?

if there is no free will or a self how morality can exist in a meaningful way or does it not?

in your worldview there is no agent who can decide to do a good or a bad thing, therefore no morality can meaningfully exist.


if there is no self or meaningful morality why ought I(saying I for simplicity here, under your worldview there is no agent so this is a bit incoherent) do anything? why ought I not steal and kill?
if there is no agent to make choices, all "knowledge" is simply determined and there is no way to reason if I have arrived at true knowledge or not.

Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ Jul 20 2025 11:56am)

That is up to you the observer of the universe and because you are a product of the universe the idea that looking through a microscope/telescope or doing any "quote on quote" scientific endeavor is a fruitless labor. Why? Because the human being can't grasp the concept of an "absolute".

A great metaphor is you holding a flashlight outward and you can see, study, observe, ponder everything but you cannot turn the flashlight on yourself or you are "choosing" not too.

People look through every scripture and follow so many paths never realizing they were always one with God, Jesus, NO-GOD and that their mind which is an appature or function of the "left/right hemispheres" of the brain are counter intituive to one another. They create the duality and we as humans all agree on, "this is a tree" or "there are 3 rocks in front of me". These methods are human inspired and not "gods word for word" and that's why the Bible and all other texts were not written by "GOD" but rather interpreted by man. All just a bunch of at the root of it all worthless and meaningless conjecture and debate while people who are starving wonder why we talk so much and don't do enough. Like I said that's exactly why you were right when you said, "Christians or the Abrahamic have added the most structure, faith, and other useful tenets that help us understand human nature" after all it is the STORY of MAN and not the STORY of God.

The bolded statement I can almost fully agree with you but "meaning" is something we as humans created and to me it is the most beautiful GIFT the universe ever gave us. It can also be said that only in the human body can one contemplate these things and all other creatures cannot. This too is a gift.

The pain Buddha would say is actually knowing that everyone around you is God and they are walking around pretending they are this thing called the ego, this thing called "human", but in actuality we are no different then a "blade of grass" or a "standing stone". This is also true in the Christian sense with, "With great knowledge comes great responsibility" Why? When you know the truth and that you are God the only thing you can do is "EMBODY the EGO" in order to HELP/SAVE others. That's who Jesus was. A shepherd leading all his followers to God the Father.

As a Catholic and being named Stephen the idea of dropping my name(losing my ego) seemed virtually impossible. You can't rationally grasp such concepts until you dwell on them and allow them to grow in your subconscious. Nothing is impossible and quieting the mind entirely is difficult and takes years of practice.

This is why I'm saying I can't answer the question fully because no human being ever could and the debate will go on and on to infinitum all the while though "Gods work" is being done, "Thy Kingdom come thy will be done". There is an end and at the end is you and God. Whether that image is you walking through St. Peter's Gate and you being given the abode the Lord made for you in Heaven or you realizing right now as you read this "Jesus hand is on your right shoulder and you can feel his unconditional love telling you your ENOUGH and that while you struggle here in the harsh realm of the worldly your MIND and HEART should always be on HIM because he is God incarnate and through him you can KNOW god and that's why I personally am drawn more towards the notion that there is "free will" and "morality" "good and evil" but I am rational enough to know at one point we as humans were one with God because we didn't "THINK". Thinking is a barrier to what is the raw truth. God. Consciousness. Bliss. We give all sorts of fanciful words and symbols to convey the same ultimate reality. A million gods but there is really only one god just many forms.

Quote (majorblood @ 20 Jul 2025 14:06)

this an incoherent rant that contradicts your own worldview

to say "That is up to you" necessarily requires there to be free will and an agent which contradicts your entire worldview

and you say "that's why I personally am drawn more towards the notion that there is "free will" and "morality" "good and evil"

which again contradicts your entire worldview, which you previously stated the self and free will do not exist.

Quote (SwamiVivekananda @ Jul 20 2025 01:30pm)

I am ending this conversation because neither you nor Saurod no a lick of the other side of the coin. The whole other half of existence and how the non Abrahamic cultures view it.

Imagine me a Catholic Scandinavian trying to explain concepts/thought processes that came out of ancient India when Sanskrit(language itself developed).

In order to understand anything fully you must study all of it not some of it.

You both ignorantly have not studied both sides of this debate and nothing any of you said remotely embodies or gets at the fundamental aspects of "free will".

Never read Swami Vivekananda's complete works and he gave the best intellectually honest "opinion" on "causation" "ego" "language" etc.

Could either of you hold a conversation with me if I go down to the deeper philosophies that form the entire basis of how the brain/body work.

^majorblood the Christians are the best example of "free will" / "good vs evil" / "morality" because their BOOK tells them these things are all that exists and nothing outside the confines of this "Bible/Torah/Quran" is of any value.

^Saurod the atheist in you knows that the Bible is a book written by man to control man i.e "impend on his very free will by laying down a series of laws that must be obeyed". This is the POWER through CHAOS that the Abrahamic religions brought upon this Earth. War. Plague. Disease were not spread by Buddhist monks in India the people in the Americas "Native American Indians" DIED and their heritage and knowledge was destroyed because "Jesus Christ died for your sins".

Imagine being so arrogant as an Abrahamic practitioner and having never known philosophies 1000x as advanced and complex existed and were in practice and debate for a 1000 years before that and then saying. "We created science/math/poetry/drama/etc." You STOLE it from the EAST and used it to bastardize everything west of you. It's why I keep saying you only see the world from one half of the ancestral heritage of what we are as humans. You didn't study the roots of language itself like I did to prove without a shadow of a doubt what I know.

I'm actually showing you both that you are wrong because the question being asked doesn't matter and the answers only net animosity and intellectual/spiritual dishonesty with contradicts everything you both are saying.

Can you at least admit the Christians borrowed their religion from pagans while the Hindus were practicing philosophies that make the Bible look like a joke? You can't. Why? You didn't read their scripture and I did.

That's the differentiation. That's the difference. I did more WORK then you. That's what "karma" translates as in Sanskrit "work" "to do" "to act". Who is acting? You as the ego? Or god through you as the ego? Do you believe in God with form or without form?