Below is that casualty chart from 2008 to 2023. and its for both Gaza and the West Bank. i was aware of this 2014 incursion previously, as well as the 9 years of relative peace that followed pre-October 7th.

this is the crux of Gaza. if you wage war you're a villain, if you sit idly by for 9 years while rockets are fired at you daily and do not wage war while providing electricity and shelter, well you're still a villain.

i mention this because its a serious problem in the potential solution to the Gaza problem. there is no Palestinian problem, there's a west bank problem and a Gaza problem. similar but unique. they've for their own benefit created a solidarity but its simply not a unified issue. when the west bank is dealt with peacefully, its relatively peaceful. settlement and incursions eventually happen (bad israel, i agree), and then violence arises. in gaza it doesnt matter what you do, you give them food, electricity, democracy, water, etc. rockets fly at you forever. i'd bet my life savings that if israel did literally nothing in gaza for 100 years they'd get rockets sent to them for all 100 years. gaza wants independance, but gaza also wants israel gone forever. the egyptians and the saudis sadly wont solve that either. they'll just give them a country that the eventually fall to islamic radicalism, sadly. they dont need independence, they need to become a highly controlled vassal state of saudi arabia. at which time they'll be attacked by iran.

The principal flaw of your argument is that you, not privy to intelligence, assume (based on nothing but "available imagery") that the sites weren't obliterated enough. Trump (who is CIC) says they are. What's the source of your argument that isn't armchair general Trump haters?

TDS is refusing to give Trump the win when its valid

This post was edited by El1te on Jun 24 2025 11:20am

again I am not sure if you can agree with my position. As I have said already you are better off getting someone else to debate this with you. Hamas is a terrorist organization that uses terror tactics, but these arise within oppressive conditions. Israel’s security measures often come at an extreme humanitarian cost to Palestinians. Civilians suffer on both sides, with Palestinians disproportionately affected. A lasting peace will require lifting the blockade, halting settlement expansion, reforming Gaza’s leadership, offering Palestinians a real path to statehood or equal rights, and securing genuine safety for Israelis. As you have seen, Israel has no intention on lifting the blockade, has repeatedly undermined palestinian leadership, in favor of Hamas, does not believe in the two state solution or equal rights and continues its expansion in the west bank.

you will have also seen that the Israeli's that contribute to this thread see no issue with the latter half of my comments and cannot draw the predictive consequences of such actions.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jun 24 2025 11:20am

Referring to Iran....

To be fair though he's not exactly the beacon of honesty and also a compulsive exaggerater. Takes about 5 minutes of looking at his Truth social profile to understand those qualities of the guy.

That is like I said just TDS. Its ad hominem fallacy, prejudice.

The funniest thing is when CNN and others were questioning whether Iran actually agreed to a ceasefire. Then official word came down that it was true

This post was edited by El1te on Jun 24 2025 11:30am

Just to support you - it is difficult to ascribe attacking another country unprovoked, as a win yet here we are. My view would be to take Trumps claims at face value - everything he struck has been destroyed or severely damaged. Does this knock Iran back 1-12 months? yes. Is this a complete and utter destruction of Iran's nuclear program? no. Therefore when referring to this as a "win" one must accept the caveats.



with brevity, highlighting that Donald Trump has a pattern of making (some) false or exaggerated statements is not, in itself, an example of "Trump Derangement Syndrome" (TDS). In fairness, alot of politcal leaders in the current day will make false or exaggerated statements.

the German & Dutch Leaders in relation to the US attack on Iran, the Iranian Leaders in relation to Israel, Israeli leader and public figures related to just about everything.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jun 24 2025 11:38am

I don't think skepticism is a form of TDS. You're welcome to believe and obay gov't as if their word is gospel. I shall exercise free thought. For some though it's just easier to obay and take everything as fact and that's okay there will always be drones among us.

people have made the assumption, yourself included potentially, that removal of the blockade is a path to peace. i think thats a bold assumption. its EVENTUALLY a necessary part of peace, but its no where near step 1. removal of the blockade at the start of any new regime and rebuilding in Gaza post-war would be an unmitigated disaster that would just lead to a new blockade, maybe a new war. the moment it's lifted untold weapons will seep back into the country. without a solid security force to ensure they dont get used its just a disaster waiting to happen.

but we're on a bit of a tangent. my main question is why is the burden consistently laid ONLY on israel. i agree they share a lot of the burden for a plan, and i agree that peace is not on the minds of many israeli citizens and officials. but my point is that even if it were, and they were ready for peace, and they had a plan that was solid, they still would have no way to see it through. its my contention they cant just remove the blockade, and they also cant just withdraw without investing in rebuilding. thats like a point for and against israel. but beyond that someone who isnt israel needs to step up, likely saudi arabia, to install a new govt and baby sit it for perhaps a decade, at least. and yet thats never a part of the conversation, just unreasonable in my opinion demands on israel or worse the failed idea that all palestinians will just get full citizenship.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Jun 24 2025 11:36am

Because Israel is the oppressor.

This conversation is likely to be derailed snipa noting we are reaching a point where several users are starting to have heart palpitations and itchy fingers.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jun 24 2025 11:40am