sorry i only see this now.

ultimately Israel has not achieved its objectives so what has happened is very confusing. it makes no sense logically, strategically or predictably.

According to you, Israel never does.
What Israel did will echo in the ME for years to come.

We achieved what we wanted, destroying their nuclear facilities.
Youre mixing ones wishes with war goals.

Dont worry it wont stop the iranians from “celebrating” their victory lol😂😂

The US is hopefully keeping Israel on a tight leash. The US seemingly achieved its objectives (obliteration of Iran nuclear sites).

Regime change is the responsibility of the people of Iran, the US and Israel softened them up so balls in their court.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The ceasefire needs to hold up in the long run. And even if it does, the deeper conflict between Israel and the Iranian regime doesn't go away just because they got their shit kicked in this time around and their nuclear program was set back by 10-20 years.

To use the Israeli metaphor: the lawn was mown very thoroughly, but the grass will keep growing back over time.

The US is saying it set back Iran's nuclear ambitions by 1-12 months, while the Israeli's are saying 24-36 months. So the head scratching continues. Iran's nuclear programme has not been critically destroyed, it is being widely reported that they have stockpiled enriched uranium and there is a question brewing in Iranian parliament whether to walk away from the Non Proliferation Treaty (i.e. to get nukes) noting compliance did not protect them. i.e. Iran does not have nukes but Israel's attack and the US unprovoked attack is making them question their long term strategy of being a non nuclear armed country (i.e. they dont have nukes, but they have been attacked, so they contemplate getting a nuclear deterrent now).



This relates to my assertion that Israel has not achieved its objectives (in Iran), WhiteSouned is suggesting that my view is that Israel does not achieve its objectives (Gaza/Westbank/more broadly). This is actually a good point which i will expand on. Anyway, if by echo you mean they will attack countries again, then yes, that looks highly likely. I accept the notion of unprovoked attack (Israel vs Iran) is not relevant, as it is easy to accept Israel was provoked (whereas the attack by the US on Iran can be accepted as an act of aggression).

Addressing your point, I would reflect on myself, and respond as follows:

(a) Israel has not developed a viable long-term solution for Gaza despite repeated military campaigns. We have yet to see Israel's master plan for Gaza.

(b) its policies in the West Bank continue to entrench occupation while foreclosing diplomatic resolutions (no issue with this as an achieved objective - you/they are succeeding and this is an ongoing endeavor with Israel on track re: ethnic cleansing).

(c) its actions toward Iran, such as preemptive strikes, may delay nuclear progress but also increase Iran's resolve and regional hostility, undermining long-term security.

I have repeatedly had argument with Many_Names and I have yet to be convinced that Israeli "mowing the lawn" as it were, is a long term viable plan. My position remains you are building the foundations of future conflicts, when instead you should be seeking a permanent and enduring solution to safeguard Israel (via diplomatic means rather then via your doctrine of overwhelming force/escalation).



It will be interesting to see if you retain this view in 6 months time.

This post was edited by ferdia on Jun 24 2025 08:46am

i'd only push back on A here. as we have to recognize that from 2007 when Israel withdrew from Gaza and the October 7th attack they had been building towards a longterm solution of sorts. there was relative peace, work visas, they left greenhouse infrastructure, etc.

The issue is from the absolute moment of withdrawal peace was never the direction Gazans chose. when allowed to elect a govt they elected Hamas. blockades consistently caught rocket materials trying to be smuggled in. UN shipments of infrastructure materials were used to make rockets. etc.

there is of course the caveat of Israel secretly supporting Hamas to prevent a unified PLO govt in Hamas and West Bank, but we can't pretend that the elections were a total sham and Hamas had no support, the support was widespread. so widespread in fact that in the west bank the PLO refuses to hold elections for fears of losing to Hamas or another more extreme party.

all of this to say that the burden of a peaceful solution has ALWAYS been placed on Israel, in total. when in reality they only have so much control in that front. we could tomorrow convene a council of the USA, Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. All players in the region and elsewhere. They could make a plan to put forward a peaceful govt to govern Gaza, and it could still very easily fall to insurgency and terrorist cells continuing to try and attack Israel and continue the war. There is a deathcult of martyrs in play here, its not all gazans or even most, but its there and its a rotten apple that could and has at times spoiled the whole barrel.

What a bizarro world take. "Iran totally wasn't going for the bomb (pinky promise), but NOW they will. So destroying their nuclear facilities actually made Iranian nukes more likely."

I'll give you that we don't know the extent of the damage dealt, and whether they were able to bring away the uranium they already had. Still... even if were able to save their enriched uranium, enriching it further (to reach critical levels) won't be possible without the corresponding facilities - and those were definintely damaged badly (if not outright destroyed).

I am not saying Hamas are the good guys. The question is not whether Hamas are a terrorist group attacking Israel or not - They ARE a terrorist group and they ARE attacking Israel, but rather the question is what is Israel's long term plan to enable enduring peace, or to resolve all conflict in Gaza. While you reference 2007, it has to be accepted that Israel's treatment of Palestinians pre-2007 and post-2007 does not lend itself to a peaceful solution. Ultimately, if Israel wants to move 2.1M people from Gaza to Egypt or Jordan, or simply kill them all, well, fine. But we have not seen a credible mechanism for this to happen. Israel has transferred people from greater israel into the west bank over a protracted period of time. Gaza became a powderceg which blew up. Israel is still ethnically cleansing the West Bank, therefore the question remains, what is Israels long term solution re: Gaza.