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May 15 2025 08:02am
it is the rejection of "objective moralities" .. Learning them rather then being born with them..


they're meaningless then, my morality is just as good as yours if it's subjective

if you "learn" murder = bad

and i "learn" murder = good

they are both equally valid
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May 15 2025 08:17am
usually everyone understands what a criminal is? except you? the lengths you go to to "win a argument" makes you look kooky.
a criminal universally understood is some one that steals and harms people.
to say "its just a word" like thats some kind of argument makes you sound unreasonable.

Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. But avoid irreverent, empty speech, for this will produce an even greater measure of godlessness. However, avoid pointless discussions.


Again, its just a word. Whats a criminal in one place might not be a criminal.in another.
For the sake of the argument, if someone steals or hurts someone and I witness it, I report it. Fine answer? And now tell me where you wanna go with this?
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May 15 2025 08:19am
Morals come from Wisdom not from your IQ.. Most never become wise ..I can hope there is a God. I see some good people that say God first and they do not judge others.. For that is their God's job... But that is the rare instance ..Most that say religion stuff want to be the judge of others.. Control what others do or think..They care about the unborn . but after birth they don't give a sht about feeding them..


Not wanna be pedantic here, but since you are too: You cant seperate wisdom from intelligence.
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May 15 2025 08:20am
they're meaningless then, my morality is just as good as yours if it's subjective

if you "learn" murder = bad

and i "learn" murder = good

they are both equally valid


With wisdom we learn better ...That is the goal to become better more wise..If you feel you do not need to become better..Then you fine.. My goal is to try better myself always seeking wisdom.. ;)
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May 15 2025 08:51am
you still haven’t explained how free will is possible in your worldview. if everything is either determined by physical laws or influenced by random quantum events, there’s no room for actual agency. saying consciousness “emerges” doesn’t solve this as it just describes complexity, not freedom.

you even admitted the self is an illusion under your worldview, but illusions don’t choose. if there's no real "you," then no one is making any actual decisions and it's all input/output of a complex physics equation.

you’ve shifted to criticizing theism, but that doesn’t justify free will in your own framework.
how can there be free will in a universe where everything is either determined or random, and there is no real agent?


so far it just seems like you admit there is no free will, the "self" or decision-maker is an illusion, and everything is ultimately random quantum mechanic processes. you never actually have made a true decision in your life and everything is an outcome of cause and effect at the fundamental level of the randomness of quantum mechanics.


if you're just admitting here there is no self and no free will in your worldview I can address your points about theism.


What do you mean "how free will works"? As I said, its a neurological, chemical, hormonal process. I AM my neurological system. Theres tons of influences in me that as a whole make for an individual decision. There is no conscious control over every chemical process going on in my system, sure - but its still me making the decision.
The chemical procession, everything that is happening IS ME. There is no separation between me and processes happening inside of me. I am the sum of those processes.
Just because I cant consciously account for everythings doesnt mean its not me making the decision after all. The decisions my body, which is me, makes are still individual. Thanks to an uncountable amount of factors, the outcome is a unique one. I see your point, there is a theoretical determination involved that in a certain SciFi Scenario with endless ressources could probably end up being forseen, but that has no impact on the reality of my decisions.and on reality as a whole.
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May 15 2025 09:06am
With wisdom we learn better ...That is the goal to become better more wise..If you feel you do not need to become better..Then you fine.. My goal is to try better myself always seeking wisdom.. ;)


what is better if there is no objective right or wrong?

how do you determine better or worse? it's all subjective
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May 15 2025 09:25am
What do you mean "how free will works"? As I said, its a neurological, chemical, hormonal process. I AM my neurological system. Theres tons of influences in me that as a whole make for an individual decision. There is no conscious control over every chemical process going on in my system, sure - but its still me making the decision.
The chemical procession, everything that is happening IS ME. There is no separation between me and processes happening inside of me. I am the sum of those processes.
Just because I cant consciously account for everythings doesnt mean its not me making the decision after all. The decisions my body, which is me, makes are still individual. Thanks to an uncountable amount of factors, the outcome is a unique one. I see your point, there is a theoretical determination involved that in a certain SciFi Scenario with endless ressources could probably end up being forseen, but that has no impact on the reality of my decisions.and on reality as a whole.


where in that reply did i ever say “how free will works”?

what you’re admitting here is that there’s ultimately no free will, no real decision-making, just the inevitable outcome of physical laws acting on matter.

i don’t know why you’re still trying to grasp at the language of free will or pretending you actually have it in your worldview. you’ve already collapsed the self into a deterministic system.

you've defined this system as "you" for simplicity of language to make communication in your worldview more coherent, but it's an illusion. there is no you, there is no true self, and there is no true free will.



to go with your scifi scenario, if there was a sufficiently complex computer that could know everything about you and your environment down to the most tiny detail, it could predict every possible thing "you" will do / say / think / feel. There is no real choice, there is no good or bad, there just is.
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May 15 2025 10:09am
it is the rejection of "objective moralities" .. Learning them rather then being born with them..


Therefore if two people learn different moralities, both are equal and valid?

This is self evidently nonsensical - murder and stealing is okay if it's learned?

This also means you can't declare anyone as immoral - just that their morals aren't yours. So you can't hate Trump or say he's immoral, or Adolf

This post was edited by El1te on May 15 2025 10:12am
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May 15 2025 10:36am
Therefore if two people learn different moralities, both are equal and valid?

This is self evidently nonsensical - murder and stealing is okay if it's learned?

This also means you can't declare anyone as immoral - just that their morals aren't yours. So you can't hate Trump or say he's immoral, or Adolf


Just because you can learn something ..Does not make it ok..For example Trump he was taught what morals? spoiled ones :evil:
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May 15 2025 10:45am
Just because you can learn something ..Does not make it ok..For example Trump he was taught what morals? spoiled ones :evil:


You're completely contradicting yourself. Things being okay or not okay means that they are objective. How do you says morals can be spoiled unless there's an objective truth?

This post was edited by El1te on May 15 2025 10:45am
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