Quote (izParagonzi @ Mar 6 2025 06:48am)

Great reply and love the input.

I am not aware if any readers realize the significance of changing the position of classes I listed. Base starting stats could be an issue, this is the total base starting stats currently;

https://ladderslasher.d2jsp.org/index.php?g=2

150 (total) Feeder Classes
155 (total) Samurai
160 (total) Paladin
165 (total) Monk
170 (total) Ninja
170 (total) Warlock
170 (total) Headhunter
175 (total) Alchemist

Now, with the Class placement I proposed, starting base stats haven't changed.

150 (total) Feeder Classes
165 (total) Monk
160 (total) Paladin
170 (total) Ninja
155 (total) Samurai
170 (total) Warlock
170 (total) Headhunter
175 (total) Alchemist

What compensates the difference in Base starting Stats? Use of Abilities in my opinion... Multi Strike on a Samurai is more beneficial in comparison to a Monk or Ninja (and Paladin).

As you stated... re-positioning also contributes to class specific items... Medium / Heavy Armor (robes are all round except Feeder Guardian).

Casting Warlock is in my opinion in the correct place since Casting and Headhunter is Melee then Casting from an Alchemist.

There is also a difference in Heavy Weapon selection with the Class re-positioning as well.

I am off to read the reply of another posted while I replied to yours. :D Thanks for input, combined thinking may come up with another update. :D

Quote (AlmondTofu @ 7 Mar 2025 02:07)

my thought has always been that if there were a class order mixup, base stats would also be tweaked to match the progression. i mainly prefer to play solo, so i can't give an unbiased opinion on ranking abilities that are geared more for group play

i know hh takes a while to pass, but it still feels awkward to me that there's such a huge gap between mage and warlock, assuming you even choose to play mage feeder

Quote (izParagonzi @ Mar 6 2025 07:30am)

Perfect response, like it.

Samurai is the first character class to UNLOCK after a Feeder Class currently right?

Okay.... Dagger or Sword are your only options, starting base stat total (without starting points) are 155. Best ability for this class is Multi Strike... best in a Group, can be used Solo... also has Two Hit Back for Solo &/or Tank or mid tanker in a group run ... these two abilities are great... solo or group (more for group runs).

Paladin / Monk / Ninja can use Multi Strike with better capacity in the CURRENT character class system, in my re-positioning placing the Samurai above Monk/Ninja/Paladin, it would make those classes depend on other abilities other than Multi Strike etc.

Well... there is a ton of thought I did not post in my original post based on the re-positioning of character class, I did not point out the benefits or negatives of those character class abilities, I also did not point out the character class level requirements in conjunction to the keys to unlock based on character LEVEL to MQ.

My re-positioning of Class and Level Requirement for Master Quest Attempt (think about it closely as you read it):

Base stats of classes based on what I suggested:

150 (total) Feeder Classes
165 (total) Monk
160 (total) Paladin
170 (total) Ninja
155 (total) Samurai
170 (total) Warlock
170 (total) Headhunter
175 (total) Alchemist

Level Requirement for Master Quest (not changed) based on my suggestion:

150 (total) Feeder Classes = 71
165 (total) Monk = 77
160 (total) Paladin = 75
170 (total) Ninja = 79
155 (total) Samurai = 73
170 (total) Warlock = 81
170 (total) Headhunter = 83
175 (total) Alchemist = 85

Even though they are re-organized, the character level requirement to get to Master Quest is the same... NOW, because of the different KEY ORDER, it works out the same with benefits... :P

Also... Heavy Weapon selection has changed because of the character class placement.

I think I went off on a tangent sorry.

Quote (AlmondTofu @ 7 Mar 2025 02:42)

np hehe

my personal opinion is that for the sake of 1) sense of progression as you move through classes, and 2) simplicity (aka not having mq lvl requirements jump all over the place), it would make more sense to keep the increasing stat total and mq lvl requirements, and tweak/swap abilities instead if needed

Quote (izParagonzi @ Mar 6 2025 08:28am)

Great advice, I like it.

Okay, my initial post was about re-organizing the character classes and amount of keys to unlock them without changing the current Stat / Level Req for MQ and Abilities in the current game mechanics without much code changes for a Beta Test run or more.

IF it was tested, and found to be fruitful, then other suggestions like changing the Stats in accordance with Level Req for MQ would come at a later stage.

The end result (including a change from page 1) would be;

Classes:
Feeder (3 keys)
Monk (3 keys)
Paladin (3 keys) Note: instead of 4 keys.
Ninja (4 keys)
Samurai (4 keys) Note: instead of 5 keys.
Warlock (5 keys)
Headhunter (6 keys) Note: more time on melee???
Alchemist (5 keys) Note: easier to MQ: RESET

Level Requirement for Master Quest:

Feeder (level 71) ... No Change
Monk (level 73)
Paladin (level 75) ... No Change
Ninja (level 77)
Samurai (level 79)
Warlock (level 81) ... No Change
Headhunter (level 83) ... No Change
Alchemist (level 85) ... No Change

Starting stat points should stay the same for the classes. Personal opinion and less coding change to format in mechanics. Also, tweaking Abilities have already changed based on the order of character classes and what is current. Just my 2 cents worth. NOTE: I agree that abilities need to be revised.

So... what do you think of it so far?

Now, the only things not discussed are:

INNATE[/B:] Class Abilities: example - Detect Trap Door (Rogue, Monk, Ninja & Headhunter) & Detect Spins/Flash Traps. ETC.

OBJECTIVES: Maximum listing from 3 to 5 if requirements have been met.

DROP RATES:
... Potions & Totem Drop Rate increased to Comfrey drop rate % (or improve all 3)
... Instead of having a zero(0) item drop from monsters, the item drop rate% chance of a MINIMUM of 1 item is 100%
... Increase the drop rate of Heavy Weapons.

I think I worded it a bit better. :D

Quote (AlmondTofu @ 7 Mar 2025 04:06)

if more time is needed on melee, then i still think bumping warlock up a spot is a good option. i'm in favor of keeping reset as 6 keys...something like what ahs suggested could be nice to make reset climbs less monotonous. personally i feel like monk and ninja are just too similar...could potentially get rid of one and throw alchemist into the mix of non-resetters, then add that new jack-of-all-trades class as the resetter

for the other points, i think maybe a little more detail or background could trigger more feedback. like for guaranteed item drops, did you have a particular reasoning? i love drops as much as the next player, but we know that would also come with inflation. or for heavies, i think your latest reply just says increasing the rate rather than matching normal weapons...but about how much increase are you thinking now, and is it justified by the number of players who like the heavy playstyle or classes that use them? or are you thinking more supply of good heavies would generate more interest?

Quote (izParagonzi @ Mar 6 2025 03:17pm)

Okay, now as for "Guaranteed" item drops refers to like monsters (including Evil Presence) that do NOT drop an item when you kill it ... it is frustrating killing an EP and nothing drops, thus a guarantee 1 item drops from killing a monster, or maybe just Evil Presence.

Comfrey drop rate is not great, however these are easy to come across, not sure on the Drop Rate %, also I don't get a "YAY" feeling when a potion does drop anymore, they seem useless to me... never found a Totem, since I started playing.

Heavy Weapon drop rate I believe are similar to comfrey currently (just a guess). Say a 20% increase? Is that too much? I originally stated the same rate as normal items because it wouldn't make much of a difference... you would be adding in 5 more items to the Drop List (if it works like that).

Quote (AlmondTofu @ 7 Mar 2025 18:42)

guaranteed on ep sounds reasonable, kinda like bosses/champions in d2. i actually can't remember the last time i killed an ep and got no drops, but my memory is bad

totems are ultrarare for sure. i think improving the drop rate on all of those would be nice without having a significant long-term impact...probably wouldn't be high on njag's priority list, but should be easy to implement

yea would probably need to know what the drop mechanics are to proceed with the discussion. my (uninformed) assumption was that the game rolls for an item drop, rolls again for the type using an even distribution for normals but much lower for heavies, and then continue til drop roll fails. in which case improving heavy rates would result in lower normal rates. but i have no clue lol

Quote (izParagonzi @ Mar 7 2025 02:14am)

If I remember you are talking about "ilvl" and "mlvl" when killing a monster (d2 related mechanics)... LS doesn't quite work the same.

The drop table is pedantic:

% chance of an item to drop when you kill a monster = 0+ (could be 0 drop or 12 dropped items)
Successful item Drop(s) are referred to Item type & Tier (Tier 1 +) &/or weapon, armor or charm (again another table to take place) ... White, magical, rare+ modifier roll etc
% chance of an item that successfully dropped = +X # of modifiers.

Yup... too much speculation, not really D2 drop lists based on specific monster types and difficulty levels etc.

Thus, I am keeping it simple for how, even after 15+ years playing and updates manipulating things.

Quote (subwolf22 @ Mar 7 2025 02:48am)

ive heard people talk about wishing that paladin would switch places with monk just to ensure you change gear every class. Thus is minimal when you pass to ninja from monk, maybe switch out weapons but not always the case.

Personally. i dont mind it. Daggers and padded robes go good on monk and same on ninja, no hassle.

Not sure about the key order, kinda indifferent on that.

The given abilities, kinda cool idea. Seeing spins!? YEaH!