Take a laser and align it with a poloroid sheet so the laser passes though the sheet. Now add a second sheet of poloriod to the system rotated 45 degrees from the first. Set up a detector that if it detects a photon that has passed though the second sheet it fires a gun. Place this contraption next to John's bed with the gun pointed at his head. At midnight fire a photon out of the laser. It will pass the first sheet with 100% probability, and pass the second sheet with 50% probability. John has a 50/50 chance of making it through the night (and for those of you who claim everything is 50/50 just rotate the 2nd sheet a smaller angle and John's chances of survival will go down). Therefore the number of breaths John will take in his life can not be calculated exactly, even in principle! It is random.

And I can already hear some of you crying, "well no one would make such a silly machine", and your right. But the purpose of this thought experiment is to show is that there are truly random events, and that these events can have huge consequences in the macroscopic world. The argument that there is no such things as randomness has been dead for a very long time.

This post was edited by Azrad on Aug 4 2013 03:38pm

yes number of breath s cannot be calculated in a practical way. Theoretically if everything was done perfect I think it could.



If an event is not caused by another what is happening that there is a change in one event? Nothing? If nothing happens, then nothing should occur. So I think smth. must happen, hence we have a cause.
The only thing that I believe must be possible for randomness is a single body which can move byitself without being caused to move. Only then we can say that something happened without a cause. I find that idea awkward.


This post was edited by YaC on Aug 21 2013 10:01am

have you ever heard about fractals? or chaotic systems? or feedback?

Ur point is incorrect.
Simply explaining how something happens doesnt prove that what happen isnt random.
Ur explanation doesnt predict when and what the outcome is it just states what caused it.

Example. Of ur logic

Johny won the lottery today woo hoo
Is it random?
Hell no!

He went to the freelance shop and bought a ticket with his own money and by his own will = not random
He filled the ticket with the numbers he wanted! = not random

Well its all explained now! It wasnt random...

Make of this example what u wish

Absolutely randomness cannot exist within a logical universe. It can only exist outside of it

please prove that the number sequence of pi is not random

The whole discussion is pointless as far as im concerend.
If you need a random number or event then probably all the things you can do to create that number are biased in some way when you search long enough for a bias. However, this is not really a matter, because the searching for that bias in that one draw will usually take so long that the slim result of changed chances you COULD get out of a search for a bias does not interfer with the actual result.

Meaning if a man tosses a coin and its always the same man. Probably he will be biased to chuck the coin in a certain way or with a certain force. Maybe you can calculate that he throws head 0,003% more often. What good will that knowledge be if you just do 3 throws.

This is only important when you look at highly sensible processes, where you need a "REALLY" random number. However if the algorythm is very good, the bias will be so slim that in this context again it doesnt matter.


That brings us to the phenomenon of multiple factors that will lead to an outcome, or the discussion if man has free will, or if he is bound by his natural bias + current emotions + knowledge and experience.
It doesnt matter, because the different factors are so unpredictable that the prediction usually can only be made after the "throw"/Event.

It only does matter if you need a random event and you know what decision a person will take. For Example used in card tricks such as a force or used by mentalists who use certain words, gestures and more to use the currently "running algorythm".
If man or machine that doesnt really matter.

not random at all
it just shows that at least 23 (all the 'yes') don't understand what a random number really is

/hint read and understand post #51

Really all this proves is that some users on the forums haven't been doing their homework.

Like me too much league of legends I'm afraid