"Yes, competition is intrinsic to human nature." - I have already stated clearly that you do not know what human nature is. As a scientist you have not properly vetted humanity in all conditions. You have only known man in a hostile environment, one where competition is indoctrinated and perpetuated. In fact, competition is glorified by almost everyone. I don't know if competition in all cases is a bad thing, but I do know that competing for survival, leads to criminal and negligent behavior. How is it rationalized by you that with all the earths resources owned by a small percentage of the populous, that competing for survival is ok? That's something I just will never understand. You accept and normalize hoarding, it leads to murder, and you are ok with it?

"That's why we (homo sapiens) beat out our competitors " - see earlier point. Your conclusion is based on a false premise that you know what human nature is.

"Humans have evolved empathy and an incredible desire for social interactions. (That fact alone is the only thing that keeps the richest and most competitive people in the world from owning slaves") - There are many factors that attribute to evolvement, not just social desire.
Necessity is a big one. Slavery is a perception issue, but can be defined by any dictionary. From Wikipedia: "Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work" I should let you know that the minute your parents gave you a social security number it is sold by the state to the government, and bonded, then traded as expected output of labor to the Federal Reserve bank under which the FRB lends great quantities of money to issue non stop sustained war against nations who do not yet have our system of slavery in place. But slavery comes in lots of different forms. I think you are a bit premature to conclude it doesn't exist.
When money buys a quality of life, and you have more than you can ever possibly use in a million life times, you can most certainly have all the "harems" filled with virgins, and children and animals if that's your preference. People murder for that which brings about survival options.

You're acceptance in the current social system is profound to me.
Crime exists. In order to keep crime to a minimum, we employ police. But the solution doesn't prevent crime, because the conditions under which crime is derived hasn't changed. You're desire to keep things the same, and accept things "human nature", fails epically for the continuum of the specie. I suppose if you are the victim of enough pain, you will change your mind. Pain is, the best teacher.

"You think that because humans have higher thought that it means we are not subject to the facts of life." - You cannot possibly know what I "think". Your conclusion is false, so your definition of the facts of life is also false.

If a person emphatically believes in Christianity for example, many of the "facts" of life as he or she sees them, will most likely be premised or at the very least, influenced by a Christian theme. Most likely much of the persons decision making is based on a social conditioning rather than logistics, or the law of nature. (not humane nature - predisposed).

"You're an idealist." Please try to avoid shoe horning me into a single nouns that cannot possibly cover the entire spectrum of who I am, or what you perceive me to be. Attack the idea, not the man. We are getting nowhere because we are attacking each other, not the claim.



-Z

This post was edited by anonplanz on Jan 4 2012 03:36pm

As a (whatever you are) you are so quick to just dismiss the idea that mankind is competitive. Just look at your first example of mankind NOT being competitive in post #1. You had to invent a land with infinite supply so that there is no need for competition. There is no situation in the real world where people don't need to compete for something. People compete for ideal mates (most attractive, most healthy, best personality), job opportunities (best pay, best benefits), housing (biggest yard, biggest house for the cost, best TV inside), nicest car. "Keeping up with the Joneses" is the modern application of our competitive nature within the social structure that mankind has built.


So what is human nature? Can you name any situations where people don't compete? Because it's plainly obvious that we out-competed homo neanderthalis. They don't exist anymore and we do. You can't simply say "No" to Survival Of The Fittest, which is driven by competition. That is a fact of nature that humans are not an exception to.


You vomited words at this statement without actually saying anything about it, so I'll do the same with extremely efficient brevity: "What's your point?"


Crime exists and will always exist. You're being naive if you think otherwise. You can accept that something is a part of reality while still trying to work to change things. This is something you don't seem to understand.


Sorry, but humans are competitive by nature. Go ahead and find examples where we're not, if you can. Humans are animals at their core. Our higher brain function does not change that fact.


No, the facts of life (by which I meant "laws of nature" because that's what we're discussing) are what they are independent of whatever a person believes. That's what make them facts and not opinions of life (or opinions of nature[/i]).A person's belief system can influence how they function within those laws, but it does not change the laws themselves.


I'm not attacking you. Calling you an idealist is not an insult. I HAVE addressed your idea while you have simply said "No" to what I have been saying. You are an idealist because you see the world for what you think it can be and not for the way it is. That can be admirable, but if you blind yourself to reality then you'll never actually be able to change the world so that it can become closer to your ideal.

Alas, there will always be men who want to dominate other men. Men who don't care for troubles or material limitations. "Some men just want to watch the world burn" (Michael Cain/Alfred in Batman)

I.e. Hitler's anti-semitism and soooo many more dictators throughout history with seriously fucked up ideologies about world domination

What darkness lies in the heart of man? Perhaps it is inherent in the nature of our species for some men to be "evil" in order to balance some sort of cosmic moral equation

This post was edited by Petecrack on Jan 4 2012 10:43pm

[QUOTE=bentherdonethat,Jan 4 2012 08:28pm]As a (whatever you are) you are so quick to just dismiss the idea that mankind is competitive. Just look at your first example of mankind NOT being competitive in post #1. You had to invent a land with infinite supply so that there is no need for competition. There is no situation in the real world where people don't need to compete for something. People compete for ideal mates (most attractive, most healthy, best personality), job opportunities (best pay, best benefits), housing (biggest yard, biggest house for the cost, best TV inside), nicest car. "Keeping up with the Joneses" is the modern application of our competitive nature within the social structure that mankind has built.


So what is human nature? Can you name any situations where people don't compete? Because it's plainly obvious that we out-competed homo neanderthalis. They don't exist anymore and we do. You can't simply say "No" to Survival Of The Fittest, which is driven by competition. That is a fact of nature that humans are not an exception to.


You vomited words at this statement without actually saying anything about it, so I'll do the same with extremely efficient brevity: "What's your point?"


Crime exists and will always exist. You're being naive if you think otherwise. You can accept that something is a part of reality while still trying to work to change things. This is something you don't seem to understand.


Sorry, but humans are competitive by nature. Go ahead and find examples where we're not, if you can. Humans are animals at their core. Our higher brain function does not change that fact.


No, the facts of life (by which I meant "laws of nature" because that's what we're discussing) are what they are independent of whatever a person believes. That's what make them facts and not opinions of life (or opinions of nature[/i]).A person's belief system can influence how they function within those laws, but it does not change the laws themselves.


Abhorrently sick mindset. You will suffer for it, I guarantee it.

I disagree. This isn't batman or the shadow knows. This is acceptance of vast wealth to a point where it is criminal. Technology is being purposely withheld to support a cyclical system of waste and domination. It is human nature, if you allow it to be human nature. Man's nature, changes with his environment. So man's nature, is not law. He does what he does when he is presented with a situation, under which variables change, and so does his reaction.

And Hitler? Hitler was a puppet. As are all singular leaders who are thought to hold sway over world resources. The true men in power during WWII sold munitions and energy to both sides of the war. And without those secret little sick men feeding the war it's resources, there would BE NO WAR.

How do you think Hitler came to possess the machinery, the energy, the manpower to wage a war in the first place? He tapped his cane on the ground and magic oil fields appeared? Factories of tanks just appeared? All the mined metals, and lines of men slaving to create them just agreed to it all? No. Man dominates land, and holds the food/water/resources hostage, installs a social system so people fight over a loaf of bread. That's why a common man fights wars for the rich, because he just doesn't see any other option to live, or he is drafted and forced.

In America, I was forced to register for the draft to get a student loan. Looking back, I see what they did. And I am appalled. They traded a loan (slavery) with interest (illusion) for money they print off a printer and claim it has value (illusion) in exchange for my body if they needed it. That's just fucked up.

Someone who held "ownership" over massive amounts of resources supplies the leaders in the limelight who take responsibility for war. But this is an illusion for the people to be able to point a finger at. The real men who enslave the world are not seen, but only by the leaders of nations who act as the military conduits.

This is my whole point. Letting a man own so much, that he can become a threat to another man or nation. We can discard ALL of this rhetoric in exchange for a common point. One I made from the beginning. STOP ALLOWING A MAN TO OWN EVERY FUCKING THING. What is so HARD for you people to understand?

=Z

This post was edited by anonplanz on Jan 5 2012 12:37am

everything else aside in this thread ill address your last statement.

stop allowing the few to own the majority? how about the majority stops being so terrible at life.

you blame the government for tricking you into signing up for the draft but they didn't force it on you. you chose to sign up for personal gain and thats on you not them. own up to your failures and move on instead of trying to blame the more powerful for it.

Have I so thoroughly destroyed your post that this is all you're going to reply to me with? What happened to you? You had JUST said to me in post #61


So where in this did you attack my claim? All you have done is attack me while I have yet to attack you. You're seeing my posts as if I am attacking you personally when all I'm doing is just obliterating what is apparently your closed-minded world view. For a thread titled "Proof That Greed Is Not Human Nature" I find that the absolute lack of even an argument from you to support this claim a bit surprising.

Let me know when you're actually ready to have a debate, though. Topic could be interesting if you were willing to actually put forward an argument to support what you're saying.

Why do people even bother trying to win an argument with benther...

I need a summarized version