given to us?
why can't we assign them ourselves, like i said maths is very apparent and all around us

like how many kids does a person have? they needed the words to represent basic stuff like this
it's the same with all language, we assigned words but things under them still exists, an animal still interacts with an object even if it doesn't know the word for it!


if you want a less retarded discussion you should be thinking about if got maths correct, is addition always linear?

This post was edited by dakariii on Sep 26 2016 01:24pm

I think its possible for a powerful logical mind to teach itself math given only that it understands the relationships of 1, 2, and 3. And that it understands numbers continue indefinitely after 3. That ties in with what i was saying to HowTo about the inherent value of numbers compared to letters. The confusion in math comes with what happens once you invariably run out of symbols and realize you need to use a repetitive counting method such as base-10 or base-20. That is the non-inherent part of math and numbers.

I've heard the story of that guy before and i think the story inspired Goodwill Hunting somewhat.



I think there is enough gaps in the technological advancement of math to at least posit it. Early civilizations with advanced geometric sculptures for example, or highly complicated astronomical knowledge that in places extends beyond simple observation across generations.

It's not a discussion that will produce fruit, but it is interesting to some to look at where we at least made large leaps in technology.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Sep 26 2016 01:03pm

What came first - the numbers or the words to know what they mean?

In the story I read about him - he sent some of his math proofs to phd university professors and most of them thought "there no way some peasant from India could be correct" - and then one of them took the time to see he was so correct it blew his mind. So he asked this kid where he got his proofs from and he said that many of them were from his dreams. So it begs the question are we 100% in control then?

the numbers? lol

just normally when we say numbers we think of the words associated with them, like numbers are one and two, not a single unit or something etc
were you guys saying numbers to mean the thing under the words? that would be a bit more sensible



ah ok i'm with you now, you did need to explain a bit more i was like 'how does a gap in human knowledge imply numbers were learn't?'

I mean, like i said above, any human could "figure out" math by only knowing how 1,2, and 3 relay to each other, and that numbers continue past 3 exponentially. Any person could figure out math starting only from this knowledge, which essentially could be learned from nothing more than a handful of peas. It's down to how powerful logically you feel the brain is capable of. Could an entirely ignorant person teach themselves calculus given only the above knowledge? IMO yes, but it would take an uncommonly rare mind to do so, someone with the hidden cognitive ability of a savant with off the charts problem solving abilities, two things that aren't inherently connected.

Also, should someone dedicate their mind to math i'd assume they have many math dreams. And its common for breakthroughs in research to be at least inspired by dreams where the mind makes a conscious connection between two previously unconnected but known things.

On a related note, i once had a dream of a crunchy peanut butter and swiss grilled cheese, which i later made, and its delicious.

This post was edited by thesnipa on Sep 26 2016 01:43pm

But if you take a human baby, lock them in a room until their 12 - I guarantee they won't know what a number is.

Just because you know what a number is, you can't say that figuring out what a number is or that any part of math is inherent knowledge.

This happens from time to time when some parent is criminally insane and locks their child up, in Psychology - they are referred to as feral children. I think it pretty well understood fact that if they dont learn how to speak by the time they're 7 or something, they have little hope of ever learning. Its pretty sad stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child)

the guy you are referring to is Ramanjuan Srinivasa. He wasn't a peasant. The reason i even point that out is because he grew up in a religious family (Brahmin) so he actually frequented the temple many times.

Although he was already quite adept in math in general, it was a theorms book by G. S. Carr's that really i assume got him to broaden his horizons. The exposure was definetly a significant factor for him, because i think thats what caused him to look outwards and start discovering stuff.

I don't know the answer to your last quesiton, however the proofs he saw in his dream were from the family goddess that he worshipped. Apparntly even when in india, he would just spend hours meditating or coming up with discoveries to the point where i believe his own wife had to feed him so he wouldn't starve. I don't know if we are 100% in control, and for people who don't subscribe to the supernatural one explanation could be : the dreams he is having are basically his subconscious brain putting stuff together (like how we get eureka insights randomly - but are actually caused by our subconscious solving stuff in the background) and coupled with his devotion to God and how math is basically trying to figure God's thoughts, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that's why in the dream its the God who unveils the scrolls.

Someone wrote some stuff about leaps in technology in history. Well without going too much further into conspiracy theory, some people suggested that there have been resetting events within history. I don't know about that, but I know there is a lot we don't know. For example like how we don't have access to a lot of knowledge that was archived in the past - > Library of Alexandria comes to mind.

yeah - I'm not saying he was a peasant - I'm saying that's how many of the phd professors in Europe initially dismissed his work ,because they couldn't accept that he wasnt University educated and had brown skin. Dreams are definitely from the subconscious - but no one really knows if we are the only ones who can access it, but if you accept the concept that "God" is omnipotent - I'm pretty sure he can go there too.

This post was edited by card_sultan on Sep 26 2016 03:22pm

Sorry you're right, I read too quickly. Though they were biased, there was truth that though he had an extremely high intuition, because he was self-taught he wasn't aware of the proper ways that they used nomenclature. Not like it would truly matter in actually discovering something, but in communicating it is essential.

Yeah people have tried to reduce dreams to just that the brain is organising whatever has happened over a period of time. However its rather hard to use that explanation for other-worldly dreams, and especially dreams that are like a premonition.