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Nov 26 2009 08:40pm
Quote (Rejection @ Nov 27 2009 02:22am)
If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, feels like a duck, smells like a duck, and hell even tastes like a duck, what's the difference between that and a real duck as long as you don't know the difference?


It still isn't a duck?
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Nov 26 2009 08:42pm
Quote (Hahkhuearj @ Nov 26 2009 09:40pm)
It still isn't a duck?


We don't know that.

We think it is, and it might as well be.

Therefore, it is.
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Nov 26 2009 08:44pm
Quote (Rejection @ Nov 27 2009 02:42am)
We don't know that.

We think it is, and it might as well be.

Therefore, it is.


Your logic fails, we act on what we believe is true, regardless of if it is true or not. What we believe does not change objective reality.
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Nov 26 2009 08:58pm
Quote (Hahkhuearj @ Nov 26 2009 09:44pm)
Your logic fails, we act on what we believe is true, regardless of if it is true or not. What we believe does not change objective reality.


I don't think you understand my point to its fullest extent good sir.

We have memories of us doing stuff, that we did in full control of ourselves. You consciously made the decision to read this, and had it not been here, you wouldn't have. If x happens, then you will do y. My point is, even if you can predetermine what decision you'll make, the point is that YOU make that decision based on x stimuli. Therefore YOU are in control.

And even if everything is predetermined, the point is that you determine it by your actions. You will do x because you will.

There's a magical stone somewhere with some deity that shows specifically what you will do before you've done it. The reason you will do it is because you do it.

Supposen you have a cup of coffee with you right now. Supposen also that I write down "you will take a sip of that coffee at x:xx pm"

And indeed, you do. Does that mean you had no control over it? No, it just means that it was going to happen.

I'm afraid I can't make it any clearer for you. I'm all out of explanations.
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Nov 26 2009 09:26pm
Quote (Rejection @ Nov 27 2009 02:58am)
I don't think you understand my point to its fullest extent good sir.

We have memories of us doing stuff, that we did in full control of ourselves. You consciously made the decision to read this, and had it not been here, you wouldn't have. If x happens, then you will do y. My point is, even if you can predetermine what decision you'll make, the point is that YOU make that decision based on x stimuli. Therefore YOU are in control.

And even if everything is predetermined, the point is that you determine it by your actions. You will do x because you will.

There's a magical stone somewhere with some deity that shows specifically what you will do before you've done it. The reason you will do it is because you do it.

Supposen you have a cup of coffee with you right now. Supposen also that I write down "you will take a sip of that coffee at x:xx pm"

And indeed, you do. Does that mean you had no control over it? No, it just means that it was going to happen.

I'm afraid I can't make it any clearer for you. I'm all out of explanations.


Sorry, no, you will never prove free will or determinism based on explaining one occurrence at a time. You must give an explanation that can
apply to EVERYTHING, or else we can argue there are some cases in which this is true and some which it is not.
Your fatal flaw is judging everything in a vacuum, when in reality, we don't live in a vacuum.
There is a complex web of interconnected causes and conditions that go into every event in the universe, in regards to the past, present and future. The human brain although incredibly small on the scale to the universe, takes heaps of details to successfully describe what it takes for one action to occur. Those things that happen, that determine this, we cannot control, so we cannot say we control it at any point.
I believe interdependence is the only valid answer here.

This post was edited by Hahkhuearj on Nov 26 2009 09:37pm
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Nov 26 2009 11:25pm
What is real intelligence?
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Nov 26 2009 11:28pm
Quote (Rejection @ Nov 27 2009 03:58am)
I don't think you understand my point to its fullest extent good sir.

We have memories of us doing stuff, that we did in full control of ourselves. You consciously made the decision to read this, and had it not been here, you wouldn't have. If x happens, then you will do y. My point is, even if you can predetermine what decision you'll make, the point is that YOU make that decision based on x stimuli. Therefore YOU are in control.

And even if everything is predetermined, the point is that you determine it by your actions. You will do x because you will.

There's a magical stone somewhere with some deity that shows specifically what you will do before you've done it. The reason you will do it is because you do it.

Supposen you have a cup of coffee with you right now. Supposen also that I write down "you will take a sip of that coffee at x:xx pm"

And indeed, you do. Does that mean you had no control over it? No, it just means that it was going to happen.

I'm afraid I can't make it any clearer for you. I'm all out of explanations.


doesnt matter about what is going to happen and that there are a multiple of possibilities, you will respond in a certain way to a certain action when it is presented to you.
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Nov 26 2009 11:51pm
Quote (The_Pulverizer @ Nov 27 2009 05:25am)
What is real intelligence?


Not related to topic, cut it out.
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Nov 27 2009 04:32am
god this topic just gets worse and worse
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Nov 27 2009 04:39am
http://speculativeheresy.***/2008/11/26/the-semantic-apocalypse/

Quote
CONSCIOUSNESS AS COIN TRICK: THE BLIND BRAIN HYPOTHESIS

What if we’ve been duped, not simply here and there, but all the way down, when it comes to experience? What if consciousness were some bizarre kind of hoax?

The final secondary argument offered in the novel is based on something called the ‘Blind Brain Hypothesis.’ Consciousness is so strange, so little understood, that anything might result from the current research in neuroscience and cognitive science. We could literally discover that we are little more than epiphenomenal figments, dreams that our brains have cooked up in the absence of any viable alternatives. Science is ever the cruel stranger, the one who spares no feelings, concedes no conceits no matter how essential. In the near future world of Neuropath, this is precisely what has happened under the guise of the Blind Brain Hypothesis, the theoretical brainchild of the story’s hero, Thomas Bible.

Consider coin tricks. Why do coin tricks strike us as ‘magic’? When describing them, we say things like “poof, there it was.” The coin, we claim, “materialized from thin air” or “appeared from nowhere.” We tend, in other words, to focus on the lack of causal precursors, on the beforelessness of the coin’s appearance, as the amazing thing. But why should ‘beforelessness’ strike us as remarkable to the point of magic?

From an evolutionary standpoint, the uncanniness of things appearing from nowhere seems easy enough to understand. Our brains are adaptive artifacts of environments where natural objects such as coins generally didn’t ‘pop into existence.’ Our brains have evolved to process causal environments possessing natural objects with interrelated causal histories. When natural objects appear without any apparent causal history, as in a coin trick, our brains are confronted by something largely without evolutionary precedent. Instances of apparent beforelessness defeat our brains’ routine environmental processing.

The magic of coin tricks, one might say, is a function of our brains’ hardwired abhorrence of causal vacuums in local environments. The integration of natural objects into causal backgrounds is the default, which is why, we might suppose, the sense of magic immediately evaporates when we look over the magician’s shoulder and the causal history of the coin is revealed. The magic of coin tricks, in other words, depends on our brains’ relation to the coin’s causal history. Expose that causal history, and the appearing coin seems a natural object like any other. Suppress that causal history (through misdirection, sleight of hand, etc.), and the appearing coin exhibits beforelessness. It seems like magic.

I bring this up because so many intentional phenomena exhibit an eerily similar structure. Consider, for instance, your present experience of listening. The words you hear ‘are simply there.’ You experience me speaking; nowhere does the neurophysiology–the causal history–of your experience enter into that experience as something experienced. You have no inkling of sound waves striking your eardrum. You have no intuitive awareness of your cochlea or auditory cortex. Like the coin, this experience seems to arise ‘ready made.’

The Blind Brain Hypothesis proposes that this is no accident. Various experiential phenomena, it suggests, are best understood as a kind of magic trick–only one that we cannot see through or around because our brain itself is the magician.

Whether or not the so-called ‘thalamocortical system’ turns out to be the ‘seat of consciousness,’ one thing is clear: the information that finds its way to consciousness represents only a small fraction of the brain’s overall information load. This means that at any given moment, the brain’s consciousness systems possess a kind of (fixed or dynamic) information horizon. What falls outside this information horizon, we are inclined to either overlook completely or attribute to the so-called ‘unconscious’–a problematic intentional metaphor if there ever was one.

Just as the magic of coin tricks is a function of our brains’ blinkered relation to the coin’s causal history, the Blind Brain Hypothesis suggests that many central structural characteristics of consciousness are expressions of our brains’ blinkered relation to their own causal histories, an artifact of the thalamocortical information horizon.

Given that our brains are in fact largely blind to their own neurophysiological processing, it seems clear that an information horizon exists in some form. Structurally, the brain is simply too complicated to track itself. Developmentally, the brain lacked both the time and the evolutionary impetus to track itself.

When we access our brain ‘from the outside,’ we’re exploiting circuits developed over millions and millions of years of evolution. Our brains are primarily environmental processors, exquisitely adapted to how things are in their environments. As a result, when we access our brains as another object in our environment, we have tremendous success ‘seeing how things are’ with our brains. When we access our brain ‘from the inside,’ however, we’re forced to completely forgo all this powerful circuitry. Instead, we’re limited to what seem to be relatively recent evolutionary adaptions, the ‘wiring of conscious experience.’ Our brains are not primarily brain processors, and as a result, we have tremendous difficulty ‘seeing how things are’ with our brains–so much so that we cannot even see ourselves as anything remotely resembling the brains we encounter in our environment.

Given these structural and developmental handicaps, information horizons have to exist. The real question is one of how they impact consciousness.

That the absence of information does affect experience becomes immediately clear if you simply attend to your visual field. You can actually track the falling off of information from your fovea–a spot the size of your thumbnail held out arm’s length–across your periphery and into …

Oblivion?
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