What about the 90 years before that happens?

Evoution =/= No God

"God always was..."

That is NOT an answer nor an explanation of anything. How can you claim that this infinitely complex being was always there? and yet at the same time say that we HAD to be created by him... Anything that can create life will have to be much more complex than the life it is supposed to explain, therefore it does not explain anything, All you are doing is pushing yourself into further regress. You cannot make the unwarranted assumption that god himself is immune to regress.

If we follow your logic then it means that extreme complexity can spontaniously appear, so why couldn't life appear by chance, there is a much higher chance of life beginning without a guiding hand than there is of an already extremely complex being that is himself contradictory
(It is impossible to be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time. To quote Dawkins: "If god is omniscient he must already know how he is going to intervene and change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not omnipotent".)

"Now God isn't threateningus he is tellingus..."

Telling someone that they will suffer for eternity if they do not obey your commandsIS a threat..

"Now whenever I've had tough times..."

Do not try to use your personal experience to try and convince others, it simply does not work. It is NOT evidence. You might sincerely believe what you are saying, but at the same time there are people who sincerely believe they have seen a pink elephant. That does not make it so. Arguments from personal experience are the least convincing.

"Now because of him being so kind and giving..."

Are we speaking about the same god here? The one who murdered millions of people? the same god who ordered the genocide of babies? The same god who advocates slavery? The same god who lets millions of people die from starvation every day?... The list can go on and on.

"He merely showed me the way..."

So basically you are saying that your god favors some humans over others? I thought he was meant to be just and fair?. Alot of people have NO chance at living a good life no matter how hard they try, just because you have it good does not mean that god helped. You were simply lucky to be born in one of the better parts of the world.

"Now OUR God created the Universe and everything inside it..."

My reply: Now OUR pink unicorn created the Universe and everything inside it... Wouldnt YOU praise this unicorn if you met him? ... My point being that saying something does not make it so. Just replace the word "God" with any number of fictional characters and the result is the same.

'he NEVER makes a mistake..."

You must be kidding? Have you even read your own bible? Here is a little quote for you:

"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." Genesis 6:7, King James Version

As for the appendix, it serves no purpose... You can't simply say that we just haven't found it yet... Obviously it has no purpose because you can have it removed and nothing will be different about you... Or wait perhaps he created it so that it is just a useless organ that sometimes kills you? huh... Perfect creation my ass.

This post was edited by emkoirl on Jan 12 2010 11:14am

Live off your desires. But if they are sick, we will kill you.

"God always was..."

"That is NOT an answer nor an explanation of anything. How can you claim that this infinitely complex being was always there? and yet at the same time say that we HAD to be created by him... Anything that can create life will have to be much more complex than the life it is supposed to explain, therefore it does not explain anything, All you are doing is pushing yourself into further regress. You cannot make the unwarranted assumption that god himself is immune to regress."

You can't say that something created God either because something had to create that thing that made God and it can go on like that. You just can't say there is an infinite chain of Gods that made our God that suddenly stopped at this particular God without warning. What happened to all of the other Gods if there is so many of them? To keep it simple we just have to accept that there is only one God and that he was always there from the very beginning.

"If we follow your logic then it means that extreme complexity can spontaniously appear, so why couldn't life appear by chance, there is a much higher chance of life beginning without a guiding hand than there is of an already extremely complex being that is himself contradictory
(It is impossible to be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time. To quote Dawkins: "If god is omniscient he must already know how he is going to intervene and change the course of history using his omnipotence. But that means he can't change his mind about his intervention, which means he is not omnipotent".)"

Being omnipotent and omniscient has nothing to do with disproving that God exists, he can be whatever you want him to be but he is still God.

"Telling someone that they will suffer for eternity if they do not obey your commandsIS a threat.."

But you have been given the choice to obey him or not. Are you obeying him because of his 'threat?' In the end we are given an eternity of happiness in the afterlife.

"Do not try to use your personal experience to try and convince others, it simply does not work. It is NOT evidence. You might sincerely believe what you are saying, but at the same time there are people who sincerely believe they have seen a pink elephant. That does not make it so. Arguments from personal experience are the least convincing."

Ok then I won't.

"Are we speaking about the same god here? The one who murdered millions of people? the same god who ordered the genocide of babies? The same god who advocates slavery? The same god who lets millions of people die from starvation every day?... The list can go on and on."

God didn't murder millions of people, the people murdered the people. Remember that God made our world perfect and we stuffed the world up and this is our PUNISHMENT for doing so.

"So basically you are saying that your god favors some humans over others? I thought he was meant to be just and fair?. Alot of people have NO chance at living a good life no matter how hard they try, just because you have it good does not mean that god helped. You were simply lucky to be born in one of the better parts of the world."

He loves us all the same to death. It feels great when we help someone who is in desparate need of it. If nobody needed help then what is the point of even doing team sports together? How does it feel to know that you have changed someone's life around entirely for the better? You can't dig that opportunity as you would be missing out on a whole lot of enjoyment, people need our help and when we help people from our hearts, it brings out the best in us.

"My reply: Now OUR pink unicorn created the Universe and everything inside it... Wouldnt YOU praise this unicorn if you met him? ... My point being that saying something does not make it so. Just replace the word "God" with any number of fictional characters and the result is the same."

The animals can't know about God or interact with him. We humans are the dominion of the world because we can interact with God and we are smarter than the animals. You can't possibly see God as a Unicorn because it is an animal and humans are above that.

"You must be kidding? Have you even read your own bible? Here is a little quote for you:

"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." Genesis 6:7, King James Version"

No God didn't make a mistake. he was sorry for being so kind to us. What if you have a gf and you give her a present for her birthday and she then breaks the present almost straight away? You would feel sorry for giving her the present but you didn't make the mistake of giving her the present did you? The same principle applies here, God didn't make the mistake, MANKIND made the mistake of stuffing up his world so bad.

"As for the appendix, it serves no purpose... You can't simply say that we just haven't found it yet... Obviously it has no purpose because you can have it removed and nothing will be different about you... Or wait perhaps he created it so that it is just a useless organ that sometimes kills you? huh... Perfect creation my ass."

Is that going to prevent you from believing in God, just because some body part you don't know about apparently serves no purpose?

"You can't say that something created God either because something had to create that thing that made God and it can go on like that. You just can't say there is an infinite chain of Gods that made our God that suddenly stopped at this particular God without warning. What happened to all of the other Gods if there is so many of them? To keep it simple we just have to accept that there is only one God and that he was always there from the very beginning."

Of course we can. I don't see any reason for claiming there to be any god whatsoever in the first place...
But if you claim that a god had to create us then who created that god? You can't simply claim that your god is immune to regress. How can an infinitely complex god always be there, and yet when people claim that the universe might have come about by chance (Anthropic principle) you say it is impossible.

Think about it for a second. The chance that an infinitely complex god was somehow always there is much more improbable than subscribing to the Anthropic principle. You may think you are keeping it simple but you are definitely not, all you are doing is creating a logical fallacy to maintain the illusion of simplicity, e.g. God was always there.. he created us, isnt that simple? No it is not because you do not explain how that god came into existence nor do you try. Saying he was always there is not an explanation of anything. Just as you claim god was always there i can claim that the universe was always here, or that humans were always here... But that wouldn't make it true.

"Being omnipotent and omniscient has nothing to do with disproving that God exists, he can be whatever you want him to be but he is still God."

No it doesn't, But i was under the impression that we were discussing the "christian god", who just happens to be described as both omnipotent and omniscient in the bible (Which you referenced).
"He can be whatever you want him to be..": That is simply impossible, unless of course you do admit that he is just a figment of the imagination.
Also if we are not discussing the god of your bible anymore, then perhaps you could enlighten me and define "god" for me. So that i can discuss him succesfully without assuming anything.

"But you have been given the choice to obey him or not. Are you obeying him because of his 'threat?' In the end we are given an eternity of happiness in the afterlife."

When someone threatens you, you are given a choice too... Choice 1. Do what i say and live. Choice 2. Suffer and die... How can you still claim it is not a threat? It matters not what the promised outcome will be, it doesn't change the fact that it IS a threat.

"God didn't murder millions of people, the people murdered the people. Remember that God made our world perfect and we stuffed the world up and this is our PUNISHMENT for doing so."

So the people caused the flood? I think not. What you are saying is not so different to when a terrorist blows up a building, and then claims that they deserved it and brought it upon themselves. Who is the killer here? the terrorist or the people who supposedly needed to be punished... Whether someone deserves it or not does not change who the murderer is.
Oh and not to mention all of the instances where god commanded that certain people be killed (Babies too.. as i mentioned earlier).

"He loves us all the same to death. It feels great when we help someone who is in desparate need of it. If nobody needed help then what is the point of even doing team sports together? How does it feel to know that you have changed someone's life around entirely for the better? You can't dig that opportunity as you would be missing out on a whole lot of enjoyment, people need our help and when we help people from our hearts, it brings out the best in us."

If he loves us all the same, then why are some of us sufferring everyday, fighting just to live another day. While others enjoy a luxurious life just because they happen to be born in a more developed part of the world.
As for helping people, that "morality" has nothing to do with god. It can be explained pretty simply by evolution (I can explain it if you wish, otherwise i will leave it out for now)

"The animals can't know about God or interact with him. We humans are the dominion of the world because we can interact with God and we are smarter than the animals. You can't possibly see God as a Unicorn because it is an animal and humans are above that."

Of course you can see "god" as a pink unicorn, How can you know that this fictional being is not smarter than us? You obviously can't because one doesn't exist. It is fictional just like the "god" you claim to be real.
We can assign any number of properties to this pink unicorn that will make it seem as if it were a god. But of course this is just imagination. As is this "god" being.

"No God didn't make a mistake. he was sorry for being so kind to us. What if you have a gf and you give her a present for her birthday and she then breaks the present almost straight away? You would feel sorry for giving her the present but you didn't make the mistake of giving her the present did you? The same principle applies here, God didn't make the mistake, MANKIND made the mistake of stuffing up his world so bad."

Regretting doing something IS a mistake. He was sorry for creating us: "for it repenteth me that I have made them.". I mean it is in the bible, you can't simply claim he was sorry for being so kind to us when it specifically says that he regretted making us in the first place == Mistake. Oh and lets for one second entertain the claim that he was sorry for being so kind to us, that is also a mistake, for an all powerful god he should know the perfect amount ot kindness to give without causing corruption.

"Is that going to prevent you from believing in God, just because some body part you don't know about apparently serves no purpose?"

Of course not. What prevents me from believing in god is two little things called Rationality and Logic.
However if you claim that you believe in god because we are so perfect and every part of our body was designed with a purpose. I will of course refute that. So don't try to say it doesn't matter as soon as your argument goes out the window.

yes..the meaning, but the point of life is to figure out on your own what you choose to thrive at and give you purpose to live.

a wise man once told me that the meaning of life is to have a healthy educated mind and reproduce all the while enduring all the shit you will have to go through whether it was fair or not.

[QUOTE=1234lol,Jan 10 2010 05:28am]k so one of my friends is all depressed cuz he realized that our existence has no meaning and is purely incidental and that we have no purpose to fullfill. hes all depressed and shit lol and im trying to convince him that even tho we have no purpose, you still gotta live a good life.

help me out on this gimme some smart reasons cuz this kid won't take anything idiotic as an answer lol

Well, sounds hard at first & will take some practise, but try to get in touch with your spiritual side, practise out of body experiences and move on from there, by doing this (astral projection) you quickly realize that your mind is not dependent at all on your biological body and the mystery of life just goes on. I belive we all kind of chose to be here, so there's gotta be a reason for every individuals life. The best thing about obe's is that you don't have to belive me, you can find it out on your own. Here's a picture which illustrates it pretty good, although you can travel beyond our dimension too by doing this.