The Concept Of "randomness" - Topic

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Jun 11 2013 04:01pm

And there is a paper investigating the true random nature of a coin flip.

http://comptop.stanford.edu/u/preprints/heads.pdf

there are plenty more im sure. i didnt go too far into it, but it is extremely interesting. the concept of randomness is a VERY deep concept, especially in physics with quantum mechanics as such a valued theory.

So, there really IS a type of true randomness. The simplest example is the double slit experiment. However, even though it is random, that does not mean there are no probabilities.

sproknet

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#22

Jun 12 2013 01:21pm

Conventional computers cannot deliver true randomness. But they can get close enough for human purposes. We could probably build a device that achieves true randomness by taking advantage of uncertainty in quantum physics to provoke a random result.

AimfortheHead

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#23

Jun 12 2013 06:04pm

theres a difference between randomness of physical items versus pure numbers. Physics comes into play on physical items

khemist

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#24

Jun 12 2013 10:05pm

Quote (AimfortheHead @ Jun 12 2013 05:04pm)

theres a difference between randomness of physical items versus pure numbers. Physics comes into play on physical items

the term "pure numbers" doesnt really make sense to me.

i assume you are referring to computer generated number sequences.

your second sentence doesnt make any sense either. of course physics comes into play on physical items, thats why it is called physics.

im assuming here, so bare with me, but im guessing you are talking about the TRUE randomness of nature (e.g. double slit experiment), and the psuedo randomness of a computer algorithm? i dont think anyone is arguing that the two are the same.

once quantum computing becomes a reality, this concept of random number generators could take a whole new turn. i dont know specifics of how quantum computing works, but if it involves quantum stuff, i dont doubt the possibility of a true random generator.

edit: i googled pure numbers. what came up was a wiki article discussing dimensionless numbers, which has nothing to do with randomness (e.g. physical constants, such as speed of light [when normalized to 1, as in general relativity], pi, etc)...

This post was edited by khemist on Jun 12 2013 10:08pm

YaC

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#25

Jun 15 2013 09:34am

Quote (kayeto @ May 17 2013 05:55am)

I've had an urge to discuss this topic for a long time. Hopefully there are some other people on here who also find it as interesting as I do.

I'll start with the last paragraph of this article: http://engineering.mit.edu/live/news/1753-can-a-computer-generate-a-truly-random-number

The article claims that thermal and atmospheric noise are "random". It sounds like they are saying that because it is not human-defined and not able to be predicted by humans.

What I question is this: What defines if something is random?

- If it's defined purely based on lack of human predictability, does that mean, for example, the lunar cycles used to be "random". But now that humans understand them, they are not random anymore? The cycles themselves never changed of course.

- What about earthquakes, are they random? We can partially predict them now. Maybe some time in the future with improved technology we will be able to predict exactly when, where and with how much force they will strike years ahead of time. Will that semi-random event become non-random?

- What about the simple act of a person flipping a coin into the air and letting it land on the ground? We can't predict what side the coin will land on, but isn't the movement of the coin following the laws of physics exactly? What's random about it?

If a hundred computer programmers spend a hundred years writing an algorithm with as many complicated variables as exist in the physics of a coin flip, would the results be any less random than a man flipping a coin?

What is random???
It is a word like god. Something we use when we are too stupid to explain certain events. E.g. we cannot explain thunder then we make a god of thunder (just like the old greeks did).
We cannot explain why the roulett ball ends up at a certain spot, so we say it's random. We don't know why our head suddenly hurts so we say I have this random headache. Hence an increase in bloodpressure which puts pressure on an already existing aneurysma which then causes a specific head pain is sometimes seen at random. Clearly because the cause for the headache is not understood. If it were to be understood it would be everything but random.

It seems that nothing begins to move by itself or causes itself. It seems that everything that happens has a cause for that. If this is true, how can randomness exist? This is because if everything has a cause, then everything, given the right intelligence and technologies can theoretically be explained and therefore is no more random, because the very essence of randomness is unpredictability!

I think random is just a shit word that doesn't exist in real life, just like god, soul, spirit, etc.

This post was edited by YaC on Jun 15 2013 09:38am

khemist

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#26

Jun 18 2013 04:36pm

actually, YaC, randomness is a true phenomena that can be observed with very simple experiments.

I think it is Bell's theorem that shows the randomness inherent in nature is not caused by hidden variables. Quoted from wikipedia,

Quote

No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics.

and unfortunately (or luckily, depending on your viewpoint), QM predicts a lof of things very precisely (e.g. decay rates, quantum tunneling, etc).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem <- the wiki link

its actually very interesting and profound. i dont completely understand the mathematics behind it but i can certainly appreciate the power of it.

This post was edited by khemist on Jun 18 2013 04:40pm

felton

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#27

Jun 19 2013 08:43am

Nope.

Neptunus

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