Quote
I wouldn't murder people for insulting my sister. There's no justification for that.
There is no justification for murdering people for insulting your sister I agree to that. However insulting the creator of the Universe is an entirely different concept altogether.
The transition is that you would do something about it if someone was insulting your friend and you in the process. With God it is much more severe and much more serious. Not to be taken lightly by any means.
Quote
God hadn't told anyone what to do. Noah didn't know what to do either. He just happened to be doing something "right". God murdered nearly the entire human race (really, he murdered nearly all life on Earth even though animals can't sin and plants REALLY can't sin) without even letting them know that they had done anything wrong in the first place.
@ bold: Well obviously he did because there had to be offerings made to the Lord. Now the Lord saw how corrupted man had become and how the Earth was full of violence. All of mankind had corrupted their ways and how every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil ALL THE TIME. From the Fall of Man right up to the flood that is how bad things had become. Who knows where we would be now if we were descendants from 'that' generation?
Quote
In an abusive relationship, the abuser breaks down the victim's self-worth. Christianity aims to do exactly the same thing by saying that everyone has sinned so everyone is completely vile in the eyes of God and that everyone deserves to be tortured for eternity.
I do see where you are coming from. We see how bad we are and that we need to turn our ways and everything in this life is worthless as it is only temporary so why not try this life instead? I understand where you are coming from.
Well first and foremost you are right. In order to first see how great something else is we first need to see how bad we have it now. We see how evil we are and how we would make an almighty God so angry toward us then be embraced by his grace. There is an order of which things happen. Suffering now and glory later.
On the other hand I can also see it from the other side. I can also see how evil we all are and how bad things have become. When I come to truly think about it nothing on this world is permanent and doesn't bring out true satisfaction as it is all 'man made.' Everything will perish in this life, our bodies are just an outer shell while our soul is eternal.
Quote
Torm1 did not reply to that. He quoted it, but did not address it in the slightest because anything other than arguing for the End of Days through a narrow reading of the Bible is completely beyond his abilities. I'll repost it here so you don't have to scroll back up and quote more than one post in your reply.
Oh okay then. I just saw him quote it and you replied and I don't want to make a double up so I'll now give my side at it.
Quote
"Wouldn't it have been great if God sent messengers to tell [the people killed in the flood] that what they were doing is wrong so that they might stop? After all, He's all-loving, right? So shouldn't He give them a chance to change their ways? Coincidentally, that's the First Century apologetic response to why the Second Coming of Christ hadn't yet happened in their generation. 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." Apparently God changed His mind somewhere along the way so that everyone might be saved instead of just His own little tribe of Israelites. The evolution of a tribal god into the God of the World is apparent."
It is hard to send messengers when there are essentially no messengers at all. Remember every single person was evil except for Noah? You just can't except one person to change the whole entire world and end its evil ways. Even so how many people do you think will have listened to him? While he was building the ark those that passed by were laughing at him and mocking him as they didn't know what was yet to come. If Noah had told them what was coming they would not have listened to him.
I also notice you keep throwing out lots of different bible verses out there. I sense that you have read the entire bible but have decided to ignore what the good book teaches because of a few so called 'flaws' you have spotted? You also want a messenger to come and save you before it is too late?
Quote
Because of your beliefs, you just found yourself having to justify the murder of children. Since I do not subscribe to a religion, I don't have to justify the "rightness" of those, or any, murders.
Well I can give you a straightforward answer: Everything God does is justified because he is God, the creator of the Universe. However that isn't enough for you is it? You add some more things into the equation like how God should have come and saved us and all of that. He has tried but when your mind is set your mind is set, that is the choice that you make. Every action has a consequence, the consequences of our evil actions is death.
Quote
I do not agree that we are born into a sinful world. I'm clearly only arguing within the constructs of Christianity. And again, you just justified baby murder because God can do whatever he wants. Well that's bullshit. An all-loving God would not murder. That flatly contradicts the idea of being all-loving.
@ bold: You are making God in your own image. The God you think of isn't the God that we Christians know. The God that we know is game enough to murder entire populations and alter the outcomes of battles because the Kings trusted or did not trust God. Exodus 17:10-11 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning.
Quote
An all-loving god would have created ways for those "wicked people" to be redeemed instead of just Etch-A-Sketching the entire planet. A fat lot of good Jesus did for the countless number of people that came before him.
Well he did but those "wicked people" CHOSE to ignore the warnings and God's word. You always have the option to CHOOSE God or not. He has showed you all his cards. The ball is in your court.
Quote
"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic." -Joseph Stalin
Of course all of those murders are equally antithetical to the idea of an all-loving God. The bear story is just one where rather than sending an army of Israelites to do the job, God sent bears. Fucking bears. It's one of those ridiculous "Did I just read that right?" moments in the Old Testament, sort of like the story of Balaam and his magical talking donkey.
Once again it is the idea of creating God in your own image that is the problem. Do you have in your mind a smiley, cheerful, friendly, excited to see you, life saving God? Do you expect God to come in and save you from every single problem that you face no matter how big or small like some interventionist being pushing your life a certain direction?
God is showing us how powerful he is and what he is capable of, because of that we fear God. With fear comes respect. Like I said before we build off from fear because after awhile we see that even though he is all powerful we also come to realize that he wants YOU and ME to be with him in glory. Upon realizing that we become humbled and grateful. If God had never ever did any of those powerful things like he has done do you have any idea what we would do? Humans like to push the boundaries to see how far they can go before you crack under pressure. This is evident with little boys and their parents, all the way up to recruitments in the army testing their drill sergeants.
What would happen if there was no discipline and they could go as far as they want? Or what would happen if you had the knowledge that God would not punish you no matter what you did like for e.g. rob a bank or destroy an entire building filled with people? That is why the God that you are thinking of does not match that God that we Christians know.