interestingly enough the base argument used by wlc goes back to islamic philosophers and is the 'reverse' of how cantor justified his belief in a god
but for further explanation do not forget "HighschoolTurd"s understanding of 'cognitive theory'

Heh, according to Craig, inflation has been dead since the 80's (which is how he avoids dealing with it).

since i am very much in favour of interdisciplinary collaboration, i assume that his speculative input into astrophysics and cosmology is highly valued

its kind of funny how intelligent creationists might propose that aliens created us, to which people might argue, it dosnt answer how life came about in the first place.

yet when some one argues that the process in which the big bang created our universe dosnt explain where the universe came from, its just mockery and ignorning the actual point.

Though granted, im not trying to argue that therefore a conscious god must have created the universe.

This post was edited by Ylem122 on Mar 21 2014 04:42am

craigs arguements go:

[1]Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence
[2]The universe has a beginning of its existence
[3]∴The universe has a cause of its existence

There is lots of reason to think 1 is wrong. 2 might even be wrong. Yet he feels confident to just continue on to the 3 as if none of that mattered.

[1]An actual infinite cannot exist
[2]An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite
[3]∴An infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist

Again, there is no reason to believe 1 is correct, yet he just soldiers on to 3...

[1]A collection formed by successive addition cannot be an actual infinite.
[2]The temporal series of past events is a collection formed by successive addition
[3]∴The temporal series of past events cannot be actually infinite

And this one takes the cake. 1 is demonstrably false, but of course, he continues on without caring to 3.

so do you have any proof the universe in infinite? or that anything material can existin in infinite? like an infinite bottle of water, that would be awesome.

I kinda feel as though that law about entrophy and that other one about conservation of mass would prevent anything in the materail world from existing in infinite.


or are you trying to say that the universe isnt material and its all in our minds based off our individual persepectives? in wihich as the universe doesnt exist seperate from our minds, i guess it could be infinite.


IMO "whos to say the univedrse had a beginning or an end, whos to say its not infinite and has allways existed" is just as bad as "god did it"

IMO there needs to be more creative thinking concerning the properties of absolutely nothing.

This post was edited by Ylem122 on Mar 21 2014 05:52am

don't really fancy discussing philosophy on jsp, so i leave it to the inline comments given

No, I never said it was. It might be infinite, it might not be.

Which we know is not true.

Mass is not conserved, unless you consider the energy that is present in other forms as well (like energy stored in fields), which people like you generally do not consider (see your next statement below).

They don't prevent it...

a. ok, so its still a valid point despite your opinion.

b. how so?

c. of course.

d. how so?

This post was edited by Ylem122 on Mar 21 2014 09:25am

a. Your logic is backwards on that one. I can't establish that the universe is infinite or not infinite, neither can Craig. Yet he uses it as a postulate. See the problem?

b. The second law is taken as true in classical mechanics only. Otherwise it is only statistical, meaning it is "true most of the time". However it is not always true.

d. So using the conservation of energy, you will never be able to establish that the universe is not infinite (if you want to try, go right ahead!). So we still can't tell if the universe is infinite or not. So saying it isn't infinite as a postulate is very dishonest (unless you are trying to do something like a proof by contradiction, which Craig is not). But dishonesty from Craig is nothing new. .