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Mar 13 2014 01:03pm
Quote (russian @ Mar 13 2014 12:55pm)
Wait, are you one of those people that think you can split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then burn that? Oh this is precious.
Well if that's the case, I don't know why we need water at all. There's a much better way:

Take an electric car, add a generator that is powered by the engine and connect it to the battery. While the car is driving, the engine spins the generator and charges the battery, so the battery never runs out. So you can drive forever, because the car just keeps charging itself, and you don't need any fuel at all!


Perfect logic. Sound example young man.
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Mar 13 2014 01:46pm
Quote (Puls3 @ Mar 13 2014 12:03pm)
Perfect logic. Sound example young man.


I know. It's much easier than splitting water, burning in, collecting the water product of combustion, and then splitting it again. If you are gonna build a perpetual motion machine, might as well make it simple.
Of course, an even better solution would just be 4 wheels that all drive each other, then you wouldn't need an engine at all. Just 4 wheels and some gears or belts or something.
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Mar 13 2014 02:53pm
Quote (russian @ Mar 13 2014 01:55pm)
Wait, are you one of those people that think you can split water into hydrogen and oxygen and then burn that? Oh this is precious.
Well if that's the case, I don't know why we need water at all. There's a much better way:

Take an electric car, add a generator that is powered by the engine and connect it to the battery. While the car is driving, the engine spins the generator and charges the battery, so the battery never runs out. So you can drive forever, because the car just keeps charging itself, and you don't need any fuel at all!


That's called an alternator
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Mar 13 2014 03:09pm
Quote (TeaRs- @ Mar 13 2014 01:53pm)
That's called an alternator


"Facepalm"
An alternator charges the battery in a gasoline-powered vehicle. A battery which is only used to start the car and provide trickle power to stuff like the clock and alarm while the car is off, not as "fuel" for the engine. There's no use for an alternator in an electric car, because it does absolutely nothing but waste energy.

Are you guys trolling me? Am I being trolled right now? Surely everyone has heard of the conservation of energy.
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Mar 13 2014 03:11pm
Of course they know of the conservation of energy :)

But look here - Article on getting a flame from salt water using radio waves.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070913-burning-water.html
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Mar 13 2014 04:07pm
Quote (FullArcFG @ Mar 13 2014 02:11pm)
Of course they know of the conservation of energy :)

But look here - Article on getting a flame from salt water using radio waves.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070913-burning-water.html


This is just standard electrolysis of water. The only difference is that he's using radio waves rather than an electrical current. Here's a bigger article on it with some background on the guy and his discovery:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/alternative-fuels/salt-water-fuel.htm

Quote from the article:
Quote
While the RFG produces a hydrogen flame that burns stably, the amount of energy it puts out is less than the amount of energy needed to power the RFG. In this sense, any energy that comes out of the salt-water flame cannot be considered a source of power. It's just a manifestation of the energy being put into it, only in a lesser amount. This makes it unlikely that the RFG could produce a real, viable source of fuel.
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Mar 13 2014 05:50pm
Quote (russian @ Mar 13 2014 10:53am)
Water isn't a fuel source, we have not found a way to get useful energy out of water yet.
This is of course 100% correct. Now I can think of scenarios where the water might be useful for propulsion, but they would always keeping russian's statements true:

1. You have an engine (maybe nuclear powered) that ejects a material at high speed out the back of the ship. This material could be water, and when you run out of water you need more. Of course this water is not a fuel or a power source, it is just a material you are throwing out the back. Like a kid on a skateboard who throws baseballs forward to make him travel backwards, the energy source is his arm, not the baseballs; but you do need a good supply of baseballs.

2. You arrive at Europa and set up some equipment to extract energy from the local region: geothermal, wind, hydro electric, or solar; I have no idea which of these---if any---would be viable on Europa. You then use that to preform electrolysis on the water to get hydrogen to fuel your rocket.

But to reinforce what russia said before: there is no way to build a device that repeatedly extracts work from water, without investing more work into the system (taking a net loss).

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Mar 13 2014 06:05pm
Quote (Azrad @ Mar 13 2014 04:50pm)
This is of course 100% correct. Now I can think of scenarios where the water might be useful for propulsion, but they would always keeping russian's statements true:

1. You have an engine (maybe nuclear powered) that ejects a material at high speed out the back of the ship. This material could be water, and when you run out of water you need more. Of course this water is not a fuel or a power source, it is just a material you are throwing out the back. Like a kid on a skateboard who throws baseballs forward to make him travel backwards, the energy source is his arm, not the baseballs; but you do need a good supply of baseballs.

2. You arrive at Europa and set up some equipment to extract energy from the local region: geothermal, wind, hydro electric, or solar; I have no idea which of these---if any---would be viable on Europa. You then use that to preform electrolysis on the water to get hydrogen to fuel your rocket.

But to reinforce what russia said before: there is no way to build a device that repeatedly extracts work from water, without investing more work into the system (taking a net loss).


Well, at least we haven't found a way yet :D
Fusion could potentially work. We crack water, vent oxygen, fuse hydrogen into helium, use the energy to crack more water. Consume water, produce oxygen and helium as waste products, and get net energy.
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Mar 13 2014 06:13pm
Quote (russian @ Mar 13 2014 05:05pm)
Well, at least we haven't found a way yet :D
Fusion could potentially work. We crack water, vent oxygen, fuse hydrogen into helium, use the energy to crack more water. Consume water, produce oxygen and helium as waste products, and get net energy.


yeah i wasn't considering the strong force, on paper with fusion you can get return from anything lighter than iron. But yeah, I don't think anyone is considering bring a portable fusion power plant to Europa.
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Mar 13 2014 06:28pm
Quote (Azrad @ Mar 13 2014 04:50pm)
This is of course 100% correct. Now I can think of scenarios where the water might be useful for propulsion, but they would always keeping russian's statements true:

1. You have an engine (maybe nuclear powered) that ejects a material at high speed out the back of the ship. This material could be water, and when you run out of water you need more. Of course this water is not a fuel or a power source, it is just a material you are throwing out the back. Like a kid on a skateboard who throws baseballs forward to make him travel backwards, the energy source is his arm, not the baseballs; but you do need a good supply of baseballs.

2. You arrive at Europa and set up some equipment to extract energy from the local region: geothermal, wind, hydro electric, or solar; I have no idea which of these---if any---would be viable on Europa. You then use that to preform electrolysis on the water to get hydrogen to fuel your rocket.


But to reinforce what russia said before: there is no way to build a device that repeatedly extracts work from water, without investing more work into the system (taking a net loss).


Ding ding... and this is what he was talking about when he said water is a fuel source. I don't think anyone suggested bringing water back to earth or using magic to split water into hydrogen and oxygen.
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