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Jul 26 2011 09:51pm
Quote (bentherdonethat @ Jul 26 2011 11:47pm)
In a perfect vacuum it is well-known that virtual particles leap in and out of existence spontaneously. This is experimentally proven, so it's possible that the universe truly did spontaneously create itself from nothing. However, without a quantum theory of gravity, we can't say with any certainty what event it was that triggered the big bang if the entire universe had always existed in the form of a singularity. It would be pretty arrogant to say that we knew exactly what caused it if we didn't have any evidence to support such a claim, wouldn't you say?


That's not true. And even if it were, evolution is not a theory about how life first started.


Its what my evolutionary biology teacher said lol. And its not a theory of how it started but its a theory of how life evolved. And in order to look at how it evolved you need to look at how it started. If you dont look at how it started, how can you look at how the first organism evolved into the second.

Edit:
Btw ben, how have you been, thx for all ur help with physics hw :)

This post was edited by impulse155 on Jul 26 2011 09:53pm
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Jul 26 2011 09:53pm
Quote (impulse155 @ 26 Jul 2011 21:46)
The im sure someone found out where I was going with this :)
+1



You say the energy came from the nebula, but then where did the energy from the nebula come from?
You see where im going with this? Torm got the jist of it. Its kinda like evolution, you can trace an evolutionary path so far, but int he end how did it get here when you cant trace it back any farther.
In fact, most evolutionary biologists believe there is a higher power that created them.


its perfectly scientific and way more accurate to state that we have no idea. Asserting a higher power is nothing more than speculation. Without a substantial amount of evidence to support this, all we have is the anthropic principal.

We do not know, we have no idea. Big bang is an theory, however it does have observable evidence. We do not know the exact origins of the universe. Is it not feisable that maybe there is no origin to the universe? Why does there have to be a need for a creator at all? Perhaps it has always existed. We do not know, but we can pretty much dismiss any modern religous belief on the subject on the basis of significant contradictary evidence. Now in a general theological standpoint, we are all in the same ballpark; no one knows for sure.
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Jul 26 2011 09:56pm
Quote (impulse155 @ Jul 26 2011 11:51pm)
Its what my evolutionary biology teacher said lol. And its not a theory of how it started but its a theory of how life evolved. And in order to look at how it evolved you need to look at how it started. If you dont look at how it started, how can you look at how the first organism evolved into the second.

Edit:
Btw ben, how have you been, thx for all ur help with physics hw :)

I've been pretty good :) About to finish my master's (finally).

But really, you can easily look at how the first organism evolved into the second without understanding how the first one got there. Many systems in engineering and sciences can be described very well through mathematical formulations that require only information on some initial state of the system. For example, if you know exactly how hard a swing is pushed, then you can determine its position at any point of time from then onward. You don't have to know whether a person or wind pushed the swing in order to figure out how long it'll swing for until it comes to a stop.

This post was edited by bentherdonethat on Jul 26 2011 09:57pm
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Jul 27 2011 01:57am
Quote (impulse155 @ Jul 27 2011 03:46pm)
The im sure someone found out where I was going with this :)
+1


the 1st thing you need to know is , when we add up all the energy in the universe , it equals zero
the next thing u need is the most basic of math , that negative one + positive one equals zero
therefore , zero equals negative one + positive one

as for the " big bang " , we are fairly sure there was a " singularity " in existance , and then boom , for some unknown reason , it inflated ( this is the " big bang " , the inflation of our universe , not its creation )
where the matter came from , that formed the singularity , is answeared by the fact that " zero = +1 -1 " , which can be restated as " zero = +1billion - 1billion " , or " zero = +infinity -infinity " ( if you get my drift , " nothing " is actually an average )

a more insightful question would be , " where did the rules that allow this to happen come from "
answear , we have no idea

what's " outside " our universe ? ( remember , space itself is part of the universe , its space itself that is " expanding " )
we have no idea

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Jul 27 2011 08:50am
Quote (impulse155 @ Jul 26 2011 09:47pm)
Stubled upon this question. Dont know if its just too obvious to me or if im overlooking something, but..
If all organisms obtain energy from the sun. And according to the conservation of energy, energy is not created nor destroyed, how does the sun obtain its energy?


We know that Energy cannot be created from nothing. But, energy can be converted from one form to another, and energy can be converted from mass. Yet, the energy or mass being manipulated must already exist so in reality, no matter what one does, one is merely changing what already exists. Neither stars nor any other known phenominon can create energy. And, since matter is made of energy, it cannot be created or distroyed, either. Matter and energy can only be rearanged; converted from one form to another.

Stars are born within clouds of dust in the Universe. Turbulence deep within these clouds gives rise to bodies with sufficient mass that the gas and dust can begin to collapse under its own gravitational attraction. As the cloud collapses, a dense, hot core forms and begins gathering more dust and gas until it achieves enough mass. Stars have to gather enough mass to get hot enough inside to spark thermonuclear fusion reactions. Stars like our Sun are fueled by the nuclear fusion of hydrogen to form helium deep in their interiors. The outflow of energy from the central regions of the star provides the pressure necessary to keep the star from collapsing under its own weight, and the energy by which it shines.

EDIT:

Ooops, shoulda read the whole thread first to see what your original point was.

The Big Bang Theory posits that the entire mass of the Universe existed in a tiny almost infiinitly small spec (singularity) then "BANG" the universe sprung out. One speculation is that there are infinate membranes each with its own Universe occupying the same space at the same time, and another Membrane (Brane for short), collided with our Brane, and resulted in the big bang. But this of course doesn't answer where the mass originated from, and it is doubtful that there will ever be a scientific answer to that question.

This post was edited by FullArcFG on Jul 27 2011 09:00am
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Jul 27 2011 09:52am
Quote (Torm1 @ Jul 26 2011 08:41pm)
Then I'm sure one will ask the question, what created the big bang?


Alternatively, I'm sure one will ask the question "what created the creator?". We all know how these arguments go. A supernatural explanation that defies logic and raises more questions than it answers is hardly better than "we don't really know yet, stay tuned".
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Jul 27 2011 03:59pm
Easy.
E = mc^2
ever heard of einstein bro?

This post was edited by Queso on Jul 27 2011 03:59pm
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Jul 27 2011 11:35pm
Quote (impulse155 @ Jul 26 2011 10:47pm)
Stubled upon this question. Dont know if its just too obvious to me or if im overlooking something, but..
If all organisms obtain energy from the sun. And according to the conservation of energy, energy is not created nor destroyed, how does the sun obtain its energy?


Matter is a different form of energy and the sun is losing mass slowly through nuclear fusion.
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Jul 28 2011 07:25am
Quote (impulse155 @ 27 Jul 2011 04:51)
Its what my evolutionary biology teacher said lol. And its not a theory of how it started but its a theory of how life evolved. And in order to look at how it evolved you need to look at how it started. If you dont look at how it started, how can you look at how the first organism evolved into the second.

Edit:
Btw ben, how have you been, thx for all ur help with physics hw :)


IMO he shouldn't be mentioning his personal beliefs that are irrelevant to the course at all.
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Jul 29 2011 06:55am
Quote (Toothfariy @ Jul 26 2011 10:35pm)
well they contend that the sun is basicaly a big ball of gas in constant nuclear reaction. The enegry came from the nebula, the star basically split from it and was sustaining itself.

The sun does not "create" enegry; it is radiating it out into the around surrounding it. Giving us enegry here on earth, but also to the other planets. The enegry can become insignificant in the vastness of space, but is significant here where we have a closed organic system.

At some point, the amount of gas in the sun will be so little that it is overwhelmed. Then i believe it either becomes a super giant or a white dwarf, and either supernovas or turns into a blackhole.


i think most think it will go super giant and grow to the orbit of Venus before collapsing on to its self

This post was edited by five33 on Jul 29 2011 06:55am
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