d2jsp
Log InRegister
d2jsp Forums > Diablo II > Diablo 2 Discussion > Strategy & Guides > Need Help With Werewolf Ias Formula
12Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll
Member
Posts: 22,692
Joined: Sep 3 2006
Gold: 40,582.00
May 13 2021 09:09am
Hi,

Info from this topic:
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/printthread.php?tid=11074&page=1

Quote
Now I've got it. The one thing I'd completely forgotten about with Zeal/rollback animations, and wasn't brought up by anyone in this thread, was that the speed formula doesn't have the '- 1' at the end when figuring a rollback attack, like Zeal. I.e.

This: Frames = {256*(Base + 1)/[(100 + Speed Increase)/100*Animation Speed]}
Not: Frames = {256*(Base + 1)/[(100 + Speed Increase)/100*Animation Speed]} - 1

So after changing that, I found that using '6' for WereBase fit the data I compared with. So 6+1 = 7 frames_to_rollback. Since Werewolf animation_length = 13, that would normally be expected to be 13/2 = 6. Which means that either I don't understand Ruvanal's explanation of rollback theory as well as I thought, or that werewolves do their actual attack just later in the animation than is normal (Frame 7 instead of frame 6).

So here is what the full formula looks like for Fury, already including the appropriate numbers for being a wolf (not bear) and the frames number for Fury.

delay = [256*(WeaponBase + 1) / [(weapon ias+wsm+100)*256/100]]

Anim speed = [9 * 256 / delay]

Speed increase = [120 * item_ias / (120 + item ias)] + skill ias + wsm
if (Speed increase > 75): Speed increase = 75

Frames = {256*7/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]}


Edit: In comparison, only difference for Wolf's standard attack is the final part:

Frames = {256*13/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]} - 1


Quote
Dagni,Jun 18 2003, 04:14 AM Wrote:Although I hardly did a comprehensive check, using 10 instead of 9 for the Werebear got rid of the inaccuracies I was experiencing last time. Note that I changed the number I was using for 'a1_frames' from 17 to 19 to match the observed datapoint of 22 frames for 1h-axe with unmodified attack speed. So this formula DOES seem to fit the experimental data.

Quote:Also, would the previous mode always be the NU version if you are holding down the attack key to set up a continuous cycle of attacks? It would seem to me that the previous mode after the first cycle would actually end up being one the attack animations for the second and successive repetitions of the same attack. With the wereforms, the animation lengths of their only attack animation is
Bear=12
Wolf=13
Since using 10 for the Bear seemed to work so well, I would doubt it.
Good that was what was needed to clear up the problem. Like Hammerman I did not feel like trying to wade therough the 'mess' of formulas right now (and try to match to the imperical charts).

Quote:Edit/p.s. Oh, one question: Hammerman I believe said that a1_frames would be the same as for an unshifted Druid. Is a 19 frame animation correct for a Druid with a 1h-axe (So unmod base swing speed =18)?
Hand axe uses the 1hs animation and the length is 19 frames.

human druid
mode animation_length
hth 16 <--- Assuming no wepon
1hs 19 <--- Assuming 1 handed swinging wep
2hs 21 <--- Asssuming 2 handed swining wep
1ht 19 <---- No idea?
2ht 23 <---- No idea?
staf 17 <---- Staff ofc
bow 16 <---- bow...
xbow 20 <---- crossbow


So im trying to find that formula out.
I have tried to gathering the info from this topic.
I put it in excel and finds that phaseblade with 70ias hits 4,4444 frames.

I also read that werewolf uses wsm opposite. So a -30 wsm is used as 30wsm in formula.
When i try with 0 to 25wsm (which is respectivly 0 to -25 ingame) the frames ends up at 4,56 at 25wsm to 5,2 frames at 0wsm.

So if below ,5 rounds down, and above ,5 rounds up this would be correct within this range. The problem comes when i choose ettin axe(-10wsm, 10wsm to be used in formula). There i get 5,8 frames. Which by this this theory should give 6 frames, but d2ias calculator says 5 frames.

I dont know how the initial(last hit) works. Since this should be 7 frames with the phaseblade.
Im assuming it has something to do with the delays etc. Im guessing its some AI delay i dno...

Any1 understand this better?
Member
Posts: 22,692
Joined: Sep 3 2006
Gold: 40,582.00
May 13 2021 09:46am
To clearify better what i understood:
Wepon base = 1hs 19
WSM is opposite. -30wsm uses 30wsm in formula.
So i guess and easy way would be to multiply the ingame wsm with -1.

Phaseblade: -30 * -1 = 30
Ettin axe: 10 * -1 = -10

The rest should be understandable how to use by common knowledge.
Frames should be rounded up, according to what they write, and delay, anim speed, speed increase should be rounded down.
I tried it all. Im close, but not 100% correct yet.

Im also assuming since werewolf got such inzane poleaxe bonus that they use hth 16 for poleaxe?

This post was edited by gel87 on May 13 2021 09:49am
Member
Posts: 22,692
Joined: Sep 3 2006
Gold: 40,582.00
May 13 2021 10:04am
If i:
- round down delay, anim speed, speed increase
- round up frames
- Does not add +1 to wepon base (the listed values are maby already included with the +1)

Then im so super close. I will check some more.
Member
Posts: 12,251
Joined: Sep 16 2007
Gold: 0.00
May 13 2021 10:16am
I won't pretend to know entirely what's going on here, but skimming that thread it seems they were contributing to TheDragoon's IAS calc which I know within the Druid community it was highly criticized and people suggested using other IAS calc over it. So maybe take what's presented there with a grain of salt.

In your Ettin axe example I'm confused does it have 40 ias? thus with the -10 wsm it would be 7 frame fury (7/7/7/7/11)
Member
Posts: 9,595
Joined: Nov 24 2015
Gold: Locked
May 13 2021 11:02am
Maybe this link can help(see bottom of page) https://www.mannm.org/d2library/faqtoids/ias_eng.html
Member
Posts: 22,692
Joined: Sep 3 2006
Gold: 40,582.00
May 13 2021 11:33am
Starting to get somewhere.

1 handed swining wepon = 1hs aka 19

Wepon Base = 19
Werewolf lvl 33 = 75skill ias
Off wepon Ias = 10
WSM = WSM*-1 (i just write 30 instead of -30, and -10 instead of 10 in excel for now)

Delay:
Formula given by site: delay = [256*(WeaponBase + 1) / [(weapon ias+wsm+100)*256/100]]
Forumla in excel: =ROUNDDOWN(256*(WeaponBase+0)/((Weapon ias+wsm+100)*256/100);0) <---- I think WeaponBase is 18+1 so was listed as 19 since this is dudu. So i do 19+0 as that seems to fit better.
Formula with numbers: =ROUNDDOWN(256*(19+0)/((70+30+100)*256/100);0)
Answere: 11

Anim speed:
Formula given by site: Anim speed = [9 * 256 / delay]
Formula in excel: =ROUNDDOWN(9 * 256 /delay;0)
Formula with numbers: =ROUNDDOWN(9 * 256 /11;0)
Answere 209

Speed increase:
Formula given by site: Speed increase = [120 * item_ias / (120 + item ias)] + skill ias + wsm <-------(if (Speed increase > 75): Speed increase = 75)
Formula in excel: =ROUNDDOWN(IF(((120*item_ias/(120+item_ias))+skill_ias+wsm)>75;75;(120*item_ias/(120+item_ias))+skill_ias+wsm);0)
With numbers: =ROUNDDOWN(IF(((120*10/(120+10))+75+30)>75;75;(120*10/(120+10))+75+30);0)
Answere: 75

Frames:
Formula given by site: Frames = {256*7/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]}
Formula in excel: =ROUNDUP((256*7/((100+Speed_increase)/100*Anim_speed));0)
Formula in excel: =ROUNDUP((256*7/((100+75)/100*256));0)
Answere: 4

This seems to work for everything tested so far:
Ba hits 4 with 95ias, and drops to 5 with 90ias, and drops to 6 with 55ias.
Ettin axe does not reach 4frames with 95ias(needs 130 which is impossible), it hits 5 frames at 70ias, drops to 6 frames at 65ias.
Giant tresher hits 4 frames with 65ias, drops to 5 frames at 60ias. Which consent with d2ias calc. I need to use: staf 17 for this to be correct. Instead of 1hs 19.

So far it seems to work.

Now i just need to calculate the last attack in serie.
I have a feeling it uses druids 13 in frames, instead of 7.

I will check.
The regular one, not used for fury.... Does take away 1 frame in the end.
Frames = {256*(Base + 1)/[(100 + Speed Increase)/100*Animation Speed]} - 1

So if i do this (long shot) it might be correct.
Formula given by site: Frames = {256*13/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]} - 1

For now i checked PB 70oas and then last attack becomes 7 which is correct.. Must check more.

Oki, i checked ettin axe, giant tresher, berserker axe, pb all with 70ias in wep.
Last attack with this formula: Frames = {256*13/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]} - 1
I got the correct ones:
PB last frame 7
Giant tresher last frame 7
Ettin axe last frame 9
Berserker axe last frame 9

All correct so far. Think this is it.
Next is biting attacks such as rabies hunger, then bear fireclaw/norm attacks/maul/hunger.
Then
Classes.. Guessing assa is -1 or -2 compared to dudus +1 and that druids has something - who brings staffs/poleaxe low, and that sorc/barb/pala has +0 since they reach ias break on bear with 95 instead of dudus 110 or 105..

This post was edited by gel87 on May 13 2021 11:49am
Member
Posts: 22,692
Joined: Sep 3 2006
Gold: 40,582.00
May 13 2021 12:20pm
Quote (Hyperdimension @ May 13 2021 07:02pm)
Maybe this link can help(see bottom of page) https://www.mannm.org/d2library/faqtoids/ias_eng.html


Thanks :)

By this i might be able to find out where to put chilling effect.
Im guessing chilling effect is -50%.

It looks like its supposed to be here, but im on phone now so must note for later:
Delay:
Formula given by site: delay = [256*(WeaponBase + 1) / [(weapon ias+wsm+100+50)*256/100]]

Hopefully :)

Animerate = slowing effects.

By further digging it looks like its tanken hand of in the frame formula in the wsm/skillias section.

Edit:
Looks like chills are:
Normal: 50%
Nightmare: 40%
Hell: 33% (25% undead)

This post was edited by gel87 on May 13 2021 12:40pm
Member
Posts: 22,692
Joined: Sep 3 2006
Gold: 40,582.00
May 13 2021 01:41pm
Nah, so far i have not found where to put slow% and chilling%
Member
Posts: 22,692
Joined: Sep 3 2006
Gold: 40,582.00
May 13 2021 04:02pm
Wolf 9
Bear 10

Lets test:
Paw attacks (normal/maul/feral rage/fireclaw) :

delay = [256*(WeaponBase + 1) / [(weapon ias+wsm+100)*256/100]]

prev frames = 10 or 9 (Bear or Wolf, respectively)

Anim speed = [prev frames * 256 / delay]

Speed increase = [120 * item_ias / (120 + item ias)] + skill ias + wsm
if (Speed increase > 75): Speed increase = 75

WereBase = 11 or 12 (Bear or Wolf, respectively)

Frames = {256*(WereBase + 1)/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]} - 1

(feral rage might use 11 after patch 1.10)

For the S3 sequence (biting attack animation) the lengths are WereBear=13, WereWolf=10. Hunger/rabies:

delay = [256*(WeaponBase + 1) / [(weapon ias+wsm+100)*256/100]]

prev frames = 10 or 9 (Bear or Wolf, respectively)

Anim speed = [prev frames * 256 / delay]

Speed increase = [120 * item_ias / (120 + item ias)] + skill ias + wsm
if (Speed increase > 75): Speed increase = 75

WereBase = 13 or 10 (Bear or Wolf, respectively) <-- bear ingore last 3 frames.

Frames = {256*(WereBase + 1)/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]} - 1


Quote
And since we're on a speed related issue, I'd like to point out something that most people aren't aware of (at least I noticed that it was incorrect on TheDragoon's site, and the speed mechanics page here). Fanaticisim doesn't add directly to the 'speed increase' value as most ias boosting skills. Rather it modifies the wsm. Chars have a base 100 'attack rate'. When equipping weapons, it subtracts the value in 'speed' column from that (if I understand your concept of wsm correctly, you could say that it adds the wsm to attack rate). Fanatcisism then modifies this value, as:

attack rate_new = attack rate_old + (attack rate_old * fanat %)

Whereas most skills just do:

attack rate_new = attack rate_old + ias % boost

That SHOULD mean (note should, I havent checked this) that if a Barbarian receives Fanat from a friendly Paladin, his attack rate should be:

attack rate_new = attack rate old + frenzy boost ; first do frenzy speedup

Then the fanat bonus kicks in as:

attack rate_new = attack rate_old + (attack rate_old * fanat %)

To apply the attack rate value correctly to the normal speed formula, you'd have to do:

Speed increase = attack rate + item_ias ; item_ias after diminishing returns, that is

Cap this at 175, and add it normally to the speed formula but skipping the '100 +' part before 'Speed Increase'.


Quote
o let's see if I understand this correctly. First off, Fanaticism is always applied after other skills, not just Frenzy? If so, then the practical effect could be summed up like this (?)

Speed Increase = (100 +)** [120 * item_ias / (120 + item ias)] + skill ias + wsm + [fanat ias*(wsm + non-fanat skill ias)/100]

**Doesn't make any practical difference if you add the 100 now, or in the other formula, as long as you change the cap (75 or 175) as appropriate.

With that final piece in bold being the only difference from normal. So, for example, with a 20% faster base weapon (wsm = 20), and +25% fanaticism, instead of +45 speed increase, or 145 total speed, you'd get 150 total speed (+ 20*25/100 = +5).


Quote
The exact formula for rollback is:

current frame_new = current frame_old * (100 - rollback %) /100


Oki, got some more info now, based on the fana info i might be able to put slow% into formula as well. Im on phone now, so no excel.

This post was edited by gel87 on May 13 2021 04:28pm
Member
Posts: 22,692
Joined: Sep 3 2006
Gold: 40,582.00
May 15 2021 03:03am
I think i got it now.

Looks like paw attacks is handeled the same way as fury, but with the frame formula having other wereframes:
Bear: Frames = {256*10/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]} - 1
Wolf: Frames = {256*9/[(100 + Speed increase)/100*Anim speed]} - 1

But need to control some more setups and wep to be sure.
Go Back To Strategy & Guides Topic List
12Next
Add Reply New Topic New Poll