Quote (Abductor @ Tue, Jul 15 2008, 03:54am)
in what dream of yours?
erm....that's just the function of the attack...it attacks with both claws every 4 frames...
If you're referring to bad-whirls, well dtalon against a running opponent can miss too, or if they teleport fast enough. obviously we have to compare "ideal coniditions" in order to get a fair comparison.
Quote (Holocauster_Tycoon @ Tue, Jul 15 2008, 05:05am)
yeah well the WS vs CC problem vs smiters depends on the realm you play on. although i dont see why, smiters on my realm have no restrictions at all against sins apart from the usual sorb/max res limitations. unlimited slow and HF use combined with exile/lifetap is pretty deadly once you get caught at the beginning of a ww and LT triggers as he will be able to tap full life and you will hardly be able to get away with all the torchfire stun and 6frame smites, so me and chris just adapted and use now BoS to keep at fast trapping speed and switched to a 102/86 maxblock max dr setup and make full use of our shadowmaster despite the fact that it can be tapped.
the SM mindblast spam will make sure that you dont have to stand still in order to MB which makes things a lot easier. you can play onscreen with some trap pressure and focus on spotting namelocks that the smiter might grab. as soon as that happens you can break it instantly and re-set your traps. the stun and the fast teleporting speed, combined with the SM stack makes it pretty hard for a smiter to actually hit with (tele)smite, and with 86fhr and bos you can usually get away by running after 1-2 hits at max and teleport until lock is broken.
assuming that you can make smite close to useless, you rather take the maxblock, stack against slow and runspeed instead of clawblock; you can also try walking techniques with maxblock when you stack up a good amount of traps and walk in a parallel way to them, making sure they deal good damage as long as the smiter keeps namelock charging. is think it's riscy but useable depending on the situation.
i personally find whirling and staying onscreen against smiters cooler since the tactics written above make this matchups pretty boring for both the sin and the smiter, but the slow/lifetap combo cripples WW too much to be of any use (it's really bad for you even once you got hit by slow). so be it then. i dont like the duels but i can stand my own against smiters regardless of what they might try. the absence of slow/exile would possibly make me change my setup and tactics but it wont happen and its alright like that. might be different on other realms as i mentioned.
as far as kicks are concerned and compared with WW in terms of hitchecks etc you have to take into account how much your CTH actually increases (do the calculations if you like) and that even good players miss some hitchecks with ww here and there (whirl 1-3 frames too short or too long) which evens things out.
also you will profit less from minion stack (even though knockback is annoying while kicking) when you ww and mistakes will happen more likely and will often be punished. those problems are always connected with WW but of less importance when WW is actually dealing real instant damage and hitting for stun-/blocklocking purposes. as long as both physical damage and high venom damage drop out, kicks just seem to be a more adequate attack to sneak in OW hits and to be there with acceptable physical damage and hellfire animation when the situation asks for it. i dont think that the speed of kicks poses any problems since it's still very fast and the pro's of the attack make up for it.
coming from hybridsin myself i also had problems playing without WW at start but now i feel that it makes my general play faster and more straight forward. in situations where i earlier would have whirled away and hoped for clawblock or to whirl out of distance/dodge missiles i now teleport to not get hit at all in the first place or counter with fireblast and overcome my opponent with sheer stun; and it works.
well, as I've said I think kicks and ww are both fine in terms of damage and ability to get OW, but I do think that ww is useful in more duels than kicks, even if kicks are better in some duels. Kicks definitely aren't a very good idea on this build, imo, since there's no foolsmod so the AR won't be much better than whirlwind. By the way, another unspoken advantage of ww is that it's much easier to find a 3 LS chaos with good secondary skills than a 3 LS 40 ias foolsmod (because ONLY a 3 LS 40 ias foolsmod will work). Odds are, you're going to end up being forced to spend additional skills into fade and venom, so you could lose as much as 500 trap damage. But if people wanna try this build with a foolsmod + dtalon instead of chaos, go for it.
Quote (Abductor @ Tue, Jul 15 2008, 06:17am)
darcanegel is wrong you are correct.
too bad that's coming from you, making it worthless
Quote (harry_haller @ Tue, Jul 15 2008, 08:14am)
eww wat?
he took a cookie cutter build and slapped a chaos on it^^
rest is not even his effort (besides writing it down), since he didnt "make" this char^^
well, it is largely "my effort" since I didn't use any other guides or advice to start this character, I just sat down a year or so ago and said "damn, I wanna build a really fast trapper", looked at the breakpoints, figured out that griffs and valk were the only options for 102 fcr, and then built the rest of the character around that. So does that make it unique? well no. I'm sure plenty of people have made this without my help, before me. But is it my effort? well....yeah, as I've said I didn't take any advice from anyone. The only major exception was with the maxblock switch, I did take THAT idea from other people. But everything else I thought of on my own.