totally possible, and it's also possible I'll make a new character exclusively FOR tvt (I've already got the name for one, "Heathen"). But this one is designed for 1v1, and any ability in tvt is just gravy.

and yeah i wasn't arguing that you'd want both in some situations, I guess I just misread, I thought you meant bowa + barb or hammer + nec, it's all clear now

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even if u use chaos i would skill dt, its just too useful. if you dont believe me, watch my vids.
u hit 12x in 4 frames with ww? i doubt that tbh^^ but well not sure, but sounds utopical.
but yeah, if you call it a matter of preference, then its useless to argue about, still you should mention the possibility, since a guide has to show opportunities, and not "my style is the only style"


oops, that was a typo O_O i meant you attack 6x in 12 frames. ofc you won't necessarily HIT every time unless they're running, I'm just comparing the number of hitchecks, not actual hits.


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well nm makes it much more comfortable ofc
In europe nonladder we duell hell. But thats a point that compromises ur guide to nm, at least you should mention that for hell duellers better res are needed and where to get them from.



I think I actually had a mention of that in one version of the guide. Anyway, it's actually not as large of a problem as you might think, with stash gear it's still possible to function in hell with my gear, the only major annoyances are FoH and cold sorcs, but with more stash gear you could probably cover those too also, rj'ing makes things a lot easier.


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zons = w/s much better
vs other assassins = pretty useless cos u cant escape anyway with ww, running with bos is much more effective imo
vs barbs = w/s ofc better
vs necs = the physical dmg is kinda poor on this build or? chaos dmg looks high cos of magical dmg etc, but that doesnt affect the bonearmor :S here are kicks much better dmg-wise, ofc ow is triggered this or that way.
vs hdin = chaos is very nice ofc
vs smiter = w/s is way better imo, and since ur ww neither makes any dmg nor hits, any smiter can just chainlock ur ww down and hit you as he wants.
vs sorcs = kicks better dmg wise imo, ow is kinda same.

so i see the use for it only in duels vs hdin tbh^^ but thats just my point of view, still there is a lack of justification for chaos imo^^


damage-wise, it's really more about the OW. that's why the low AR is passable, it's not really intended to do damage via physical or even magical or venom, it's mostly for hit-and-run, in terms of damage, especially since phys requires that you punch through bone armor/ES to do any damage. surprised you'd use w/s versus smiters, but I guess there's different rules for smiters on euro. with enough traps around preventing tele, and whirl-away to make hits difficult if they catch you, i think it works pretty well, that's one of the situations where I really like my chaos. And since they're charging a lot, you can still get hits, although it's really for movement in that duel, mainly. I think we're gonna have to just agree to disagree on this one tbh =/ as retarded as that sounds.


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you never play tvts? what u do vs mixed teams with zons/barbs and hammers/necs?
u need a c/c 102fc setup with high dr, also for some 1n1s as an option, therefore griff ber is just an easy source to push dr, imo absolutely necessary.
about the res things i disagree, since i think anything more than 5maxres on a c/c sin is hilarious, you dont really need to duel then anymore, its already easy enough with 80res. Also the last ladder rules capped assa res at 80, and new nl rules will do too imo, so griff vex/lo is the best choice, u keep ur life/fhr/fc/kickdmg and have the res.
Jah is no discussion imo, vs necs or hdin u jsut need life, and u play bos anyway.
Cham is only needed vs orb, even blizzard doesnt freeze long enough to justify a cham, if you ask me.

Well i got a 45ias mainclaw^^ but getting the ias from the mainclaw isnt a problem, ofc u might compromise on the add skills then or sth. also clawbugging makes it pretty easy.


I haven't done much tvt with this build, no =/ planning on doing more in the future, but it's mostly intended as a 1v1 dueler. While I'd like the build to be CAPABLE of tvts, it's designed first for 1v1, and if it's possible to use for tvt, then that's great. and I'd rather have ww vs hdins than a bit more life.

as far as the sorb stuff goes...well, I think I mention it in the (unpublished) intro to my strategy section, but all gear switches are to be used IF NECESSARY. imo, in most duels you don't need them. I've got loads of cold stack available, but that doesn't mean I'd use it against a cold sorc because that makes the duel not fun. If your absolute goal is winning (i.e. you bet 5K fg on it) then yeah, I'd use every gm advantage I could get. But for fun duels, sure I probably wouldn't whip out the strides or the wisp. I think it's my job to list the best gear for each duel, even if it's not necessary. It seems sorta silly to do it half-assed though, imo either go all-out with strides/wisp or don't use any at all. both are gm by the rules I use (d2pk rules), however I don't use spurs or tgods since those aren't. and ofc I don't suggest violating any gm rules.

EDIT: btw I'd use w/s vs a bowa + barb team, and you don't need dr% vs a din + nec team

I don't see why dr% would be a major concern against a team with a bone nec anyway, their amp makes dr% fairly inconsequencial anyway, it basically divides the effectiveness by 2-3.

EDIT on the EDIT: oh yeah, and I used to wsm bug (mentioned in the FAQs) but I don't really like it. first, it means no switching or wsging. second, imo it's somewhat lame imo. I know most people disagree with me on that one, but imo it's a bug and shouldn't be used. but, for people who want to use it, it's in the FAQs.


Thats suicide in Euro, as I've said before, holy freeze is gm in Smite vs Hybsins / Trapsins . As Moe said Pure trappers have got a bigger chance since smiters slow ww and catch 'em fast.

Vs rand smiters : teleporting around with 102 fcr 75% block W/S is the best way to go, they'd never be fast enough to chain, and they'd end up charging most of the time
and in that case 75% block > 5x% block.

However, vs good Smiters, the ones that can chainlock ( better than me duh ^^^) w/s is useless since you cant tank at all. c/c won't help you winning all the time, but the 5x%-6x% blocking smite gives you an edge...

48 fhr bp > stunn from traps, and even the worst smiters can chainlock a turtle assassin. 102 fcr pure teleport only the really good chainlockers will beat you

Also, I hope that don't use c/c vs bvc's

This post was edited by ultima1 on Jul 14 2008 01:48pm

nice bullshit lol^^

i hope noone believes any of the stuff u say^^

well, I think good use of traps and mindblast can prevent teleporting, so yes it's basically just trying to avoid their charge. with good use of holy freeze whirl-away becomes less useful (and i believe it's gm on west too, just not clegs etc), but versus the majority of smiters it really pisses them off and prevents others from using res light aura at the same time. I may try w/s versus smiters to see how it goes.

in what dream of yours?

yeah well the WS vs CC problem vs smiters depends on the realm you play on. although i dont see why, smiters on my realm have no restrictions at all against sins apart from the usual sorb/max res limitations. unlimited slow and HF use combined with exile/lifetap is pretty deadly once you get caught at the beginning of a ww and LT triggers as he will be able to tap full life and you will hardly be able to get away with all the torchfire stun and 6frame smites, so me and chris just adapted and use now BoS to keep at fast trapping speed and switched to a 102/86 maxblock max dr setup and make full use of our shadowmaster despite the fact that it can be tapped.
the SM mindblast spam will make sure that you dont have to stand still in order to MB which makes things a lot easier. you can play onscreen with some trap pressure and focus on spotting namelocks that the smiter might grab. as soon as that happens you can break it instantly and re-set your traps. the stun and the fast teleporting speed, combined with the SM stack makes it pretty hard for a smiter to actually hit with (tele)smite, and with 86fhr and bos you can usually get away by running after 1-2 hits at max and teleport until lock is broken.
assuming that you can make smite close to useless, you rather take the maxblock, stack against slow and runspeed instead of clawblock; you can also try walking techniques with maxblock when you stack up a good amount of traps and walk in a parallel way to them, making sure they deal good damage as long as the smiter keeps namelock charging. is think it's riscy but useable depending on the situation.
i personally find whirling and staying onscreen against smiters cooler since the tactics written above make this matchups pretty boring for both the sin and the smiter, but the slow/lifetap combo cripples WW too much to be of any use (it's really bad for you even once you got hit by slow). so be it then. i dont like the duels but i can stand my own against smiters regardless of what they might try. the absence of slow/exile would possibly make me change my setup and tactics but it wont happen and its alright like that. might be different on other realms as i mentioned.


as far as kicks are concerned and compared with WW in terms of hitchecks etc you have to take into account how much your CTH actually increases (do the calculations if you like) and that even good players miss some hitchecks with ww here and there (whirl 1-3 frames too short or too long) which evens things out.
also you will profit less from minion stack (even though knockback is annoying while kicking) when you ww and mistakes will happen more likely and will often be punished. those problems are always connected with WW but of less importance when WW is actually dealing real instant damage and hitting for stun-/blocklocking purposes. as long as both physical damage and high venom damage drop out, kicks just seem to be a more adequate attack to sneak in OW hits and to be there with acceptable physical damage and hellfire animation when the situation asks for it. i dont think that the speed of kicks poses any problems since it's still very fast and the pro's of the attack make up for it.
coming from hybridsin myself i also had problems playing without WW at start but now i feel that it makes my general play faster and more straight forward. in situations where i earlier would have whirled away and hoped for clawblock or to whirl out of distance/dodge missiles i now teleport to not get hit at all in the first place or counter with fireblast and overcome my opponent with sheer stun; and it works.

This post was edited by Holocauster_Tycoon on Jul 15 2008 07:10am

no cuz theorycarfting >>> d2. actual math has very little to do how a build fares..

i think i have enough practical experience to back up everything that i said here.
i know that theory is different from praxis and thats what i also say if you read the lines about ww hitchecks and practical ww control issues etc

maybe i misunderstood you though and it was meant in a different way