Nvm found out.

This post was edited by Wong1212 on Jun 5 2007 08:26pm

Guide isn't bad. I have a few questions though.

1. Would using Phoenix + Eth Deaths Cleaver be better than any 2hander? This may be true because the dmg added on from the phoenix. Again, I'm not sure, and maybe another weapon may be better. I'm asking from a pure dmg standpoint, I'm not taking into consideration the benefits of a shield (such as block and defense).

2. What is the BEST weapon, PERIOD, out there? I hear Death Archon Staff or Glorious Axe is good, and some people are fans of Ebotd War Pike (without even considering the Phoenix + Eth setup). Which would do more dmg?

3. How does this build hold up against Zerker BVCs and Zerker BVBs (note: they are different!)?

Anyways, good build. I also recommend using a last wish for fade and infinity on switch for cyclone armor.

i think the giude is very nicee but at the same time its extreamly WEAK

you can make up for this by using 1 hand death whit a phoenix or vs barbs exile..

this way you can easy pawn ww barbs hybrid sins (WICH SUCHS)
only difecult is amazon whit dodge skills

i had this build on hardcore when i used amplify

and whit so high ds i did like 4 X normal dmg thats a one hit kill no matter howmuch ur barb has in dr or life.


try this one thats just insane

Nice guide

1. its been awhile since i ran the figures but im pretty sure grief was the best 1hander
2. the best max dmg achievable is with an ebotd war pike (or a hypothetical rare w/ fools, ed, eth repair, etc), however you lose a large amount of ds and so more things are left up to chance. i went with eth death decapitator because it gives 90%ish ds. with ebotd pike, youll have around 50-60 (cant rly remember) ds so your chances arent as good. plus it has a wider dmg range (ie from min->max).
3. any ww'er will own you unless you have smite as a secondary skill. you might get a lucky desynch charge in and catch em off guard but you almost never overcome 75%block, high defense, and the ww animation... not to mention 50% dr on good barbs and 6k life.

1. ETHEREAL Death's Cleaver w/Ohm > Grief. DC has a huge DS chance on it, so this may free up more gear. I'm not sure on the exacts... but let's take a look:



Now, DC has 66 DS on it. With Highlords on top, you have 100%, and you can just use some resistance boots, war travs, treks, or something else instead.

With Grief, you have 20%. Then you need highlords @ ~30% on top, then Gores for 15% more. So you have about 65% DC on it. That would put the min dmg read on cleaver at about 360 (min of 90, eth + ohm = 100% more so 180, then ds = x2). At max, it would be 269 + 100%, 538, then ds would put it at 1076 max dmg.

Now, I really don't know how Grief's dmg works, but you'd have to cut to calcuate dmg at min = no ds to max = ds added. Then cut it at 65% since you have a smaller chance of DS on it.

So I really don't know how the dmg would work out, but it already sounds like Death's Cleaver > Death. Also, -33% defense on the enemy is pretty nice.

However, this isn't really a concern to me. What my question is, is what does more dmg: Phoenix + a 1 Hander ( I suppose Eth DC), or a 2 hander (like Death Archon, Death Glorious, or Ebotd War Pike). I see that Phoenix gives +400% more dmg, so it SOUNDS like a 1 hander + Phoenix would do more dmg than a 2 hander Death or Ebotd. I know a shield has it's own benefits of it's own, but that is of no concern to me to this discussion.




Well which has a higher average damage? Since a charger is meant to 1-shot the enemy, if your range is too variable and you get a bad roll then you would get fucked if it doesn't 1 shot the enemy.



So here's botd and death put together. The only +'s of Botd is 15% more ED and -25% enemy defense. Death has about 40% DS on it though.

So with botd, you got gore (15%) and highlords (30%) and you got a 45% DS on it. With Death, you got 40% + 30% + 15% = 85%. Now, take the avg dmg on Death, with DS as the max dmg, and multiply by 85%. With botd, you gotta multiply by 45%. So put it at 60% since botd has higher ED. With that, Death still has 15% more average damage.

Since Death has 20% Bonus to AR and 50 AR on it, to Botd doing 25% less defense, it really seems like Death is better since more dmg on it.



I'm not asking about whirlwind barbs... I'm asking about Zerker barbs. How does a charger stand against Zerker barbs, both BVC and BVB; Those with shields, and those without.

Anyways: It seems like for 1 hander, Eth DC > Grief, and for 2 hander, Death > Botd. It would seem like the 400% more dmg added on from Phoenix would translate to roughly 400 more dmg, and then 800 because of the 100% Deadly Strike. Is this correct?

A Few Suggestions:
1. Wouldn't enigma rape Hammerdins? Use Eternity for some summons, tele on top of the hdin, and then charge him?

2. Keep a Gavel of Pain on switch against phys dmg so you can aa + amp the enemy first.

3. Keep an Infinity on switch against elemental, so you can recast cyclone.

4. I don't agree with your armors at all, but you have them listed apparently to kill generically rather than to kill specifically.

My questions now are:

1. How does Phoenix dmg calculated. Am I correct it would add 400% more dmg, which roughly would be 800 more dmg due to DS, making the 400ish max dmg on an eth DC to 800ish? Essentially, what is more dmg: A godly 1 hander + Phoenix, or a godly 2 hander?

2. How does range affect charge? Is it that useful?

3. How do charges stand up against ZERK barbs: BVB w/Shield and BVC w/no Shield? (Take note I AM NOT ASKING ABOUT WW BARBS).



This post was edited by Belial88 on Jun 9 2007 06:33am

Belial88:

1.
First, you wouldnt use an ohm in an eth weapon like edc. Anyways, here are the figures on my single player hybrid build (its modified for using smite so it cuts into some charge dmg - therefore figures are slightly lower than a pure charge build):

Grief Zerk +400dmg: 11651-12943 (23302-25886 after ds, avg 25929) .. 65-70% ds (depends on level)
Eth DC 330%ed: 4231-12558 (8462-25116 after ds, avg 16789) .. 100% ds
Death Decapitator 385%: 8358-23386 (16716-46772 after ds, avg 31774) .. 90-95% ds
EBOTD War Pike 415%: 5963-32285 (11926-64570 after ds, avg 38248) .. 45-50% ds
EBOTD Archon Staff 415%: 15050-17938 (30100-35876 after ds, avg 32988) .. 45-50%ds

dmg calculator link: http://www.baronsbazaar.invisionzone.com/ppr/damage_calc.html

I feel that Grief = best 1hand & Death = best 2hand based on ds%'s and other reasons (smite backup for grief, 20% ar bonus for death). EDC is good too but you cant smite with it effectively.

2.
I believe this is covered in the above figures. Although EBOTD's win out in listed dmg, they lose a bunch of ds. Its your call if you want to attempt a 45%ds chance with each charge you land. I went with the odds.

3.
The basic difficulties of charge are still present even against a non-ww'er. Max block builds, high defense, high life, and high dr are all problems for your charger (most zerkers have this from what ive read). I never fought a zerker but I'd imagine theyre pretty similar to zealers. Probably not as difficult as a ww'er but I'm guessing.

Your suggestions
1. Tele'ing on top of a h'din isn't useful cuz you need to charge at the opponent and if you're up close your charger will swing a regular attack rather than a charge. This is why it is necessary to use guerilla tactics. Charge in, connect (or miss/get blocked), charge away, repeat. His hammers are too slow if you're south of him always.
2. I could see this being practical in some instances.
3. This could be useful. I prefer not to have to run to stash so i stack res, hence btals and res/req coa.
4. Yes, this build was supposed to be a vs-all build. I prefer not to swap in gear for specific matchups.

Additional Questions
1. I believe gear based ed is simply added on top of your skill dmg. For instance, charge dmg (1500%ish)+ fanat (500%ish) + phoenix (400%) = 2400%. This is multiplied on your dmg roll (354-994 death decap, you roll one number in this range then * 2400% then add ds if you're lucky enough to trigger it). I am not 100% sure about these calculations but they make sense.
2. Nah range isnt particularly useful in my experience. People say range 5 weaps can hit a ww'ing barb but I'll say from experience that it isnt any more useful than a range 2-3. You'd stand a much better chance shift-smiting with a grief+exile on switch, or just use a grief for 1hand charge.
3. See question 3.

1. I'd use Ohm for Eth DC for dmg? Lol.. why not? I'm used to hardcore so much less dueling in there, but even then, just use Ohm DC for dueling only. If and when you get to 1 durability, just zod it, sell it, and buy another eth DC with full dura. I'm still dubious to your calculations as well. Was your Grief min dmg based on DS or no DS? Only DC should have DS counted on min dmg since 100%.

Even with this knownledge though, it still doesnt answer the question of if a 1hander can reach higher dmg than a 2hander if you're using Phoenix.

2. Given Death's ridiculously higher DS chance, I'd go with a Death Glorious Axe

3. Yes, but the same problems you'd have on a zerk barb they would have on you (if you used a shield). And if you didn't use a shield, many other problems exist. Although a zerker would one shot you, you're defense would be high and you would 1-shot them. Charge also is just crazy and weird, as well as super fast and KB, so I would think it was rape a zerker barb.

4. What's the whole smiter-switch thing? This isn't a hybrid build or anything at all, and it seems like a 2 hander would be more practical so I don't understand

Belial88:

1. You stated you'd be using an ohm. Also, I wouldn't use this on hardcore given all the autoaim/hacks out there. The calculations were done using the dmg calculator I linked, I just input the numbers. If you still are confused, run the numbers yourself and it might clear things up.
2. Go for it.
3. Your defense wont be high if you dont use a shield. You stand a much greater chance of dying without shield+block unless you desynch like crazy.
4. Covered in middle pages of guide.

1. I see your dmg calcs now, the parenth is DS and out is not. Taking the formula of ((Min Dmg + Max Dmg)/2)*(1+DS)= Average Dmg.

Grief: ((11651 + 12943)/2)*(1+(.2+.3+.15) = 20290.05
Eth DC: ((4231 + 12558)/2)*(1+(1)) = 16789

Touche, seems like Grief is better.

2. Well I may use a 1hander + Shield lol, duno yet.

3. Yea true. But still, who'd win! No clue how that'd work out, zerker vs charger.

4. Didn't see anything about smite o_O

Thanks for answering though.

This post was edited by Belial88 on Jun 9 2007 04:16pm