yeah i was about to say this as well.

in your own words: hybridizing like you did is a lie. your ww is close to useless. you dont need it as a movement apart from vs hammerdins (show me where), and whirling vs trappers will more likely get you into more trouble since it will not get you out of anything. WSG as soon as you feel that you should rather back off and regroup. this is so much harder for the opponent trapper than wwing, at least thats how i see it. apart from that, you always lose damage and open sockets from chaos + what chris already said.

kicks on our trapper hit 9.x K ar and 50% OW, torchfire helps lots and kicks are overall more comfortable to bind into your tactics when dueling casters. the only reason why you would possibly like to use chaos and another high OW claw is to whirl over WSGing casters. might try it myself against the very slippy and heavily WSGing casters but im actually not keen on losing even more trap damage than i already did by using 102fcr and max mindblast when i usually can get kicks in rather easily.
2k ar whirls wont tank anything insofar i think this is 'a lie', the only thing that might make chaos viable against casters on this specific build is the wsg thing as their defense drops to zero while running, allowing you to hit without AR. i will post my experiences, maybe along with some videos after i tested that.



apart from that, the build is pretty solid and displays a modern trapper that can make use of the stengths of the entire assassin class. chris has been playing a similar build over the entire last ladder successfully and we are now completing the probably most awesome trapsin build that has ever existed on the closed realms on nonladder hehe.


ps. a rather tactical note: before writing a strategy section you might want to try a w/s max DR 102/86 cnbf setup against wind druids. i directly compared a cc faded 36DR setup to a ws 50dr bos cnbf setup and was feeling much more comfortable with the mobility that bos offers. you can counter fast stomps much better with really fast running speed and you can get out of nado range after quick stomps of your own. i didnt believe myself how much more comfortable ws was because i overrated clawblock before. BoS will also let you kick wsging druids in the back since you run so fast, and the physical damage is really noticable when you hit at a 100% rate while the druid is left without oak and usually low DR (163fc setup).

yo, real responses are not allowed here. -1

-about dt, it attacks 3x in 13 frames, if you have a 3-chain kick. that's less than 1 every 4 frames, on average. ww attacks 12x in 4 frames, on average twice as much. even if dtalon AR was twice as high, ww would still have a better chance of getting OW. I do miss torchfire, but I've already done a fairly long analysis of it. dtalon (with a fools claw instead of chaos) is fine, but it's just not what I prefer. The reason I don't skill it on THIS build is that whirlwind already performs most of the same functions, the AR is bad (compared to a foolsmod build) and skill points are so tight, that spending a point into dtalon would mean losing a trap synergy. Unless you get to level 99. O_O

-both claws hit the fastest ww speed (ALL gts do, for that matter), np there. I can actually get over 2K AR fairly easily. Not a lot, but with CoS it's enough to hit the majority of casters. res-wise, there really aren't any problems with the build so it didn't seem like it was worth worrying about. ALTHOUGH I should point out that my duels are in nm, so those dueling in hell might run into more problems.

-lol, well I hope I don't sound THAT pigheaded. I think it's useful in nearly every duel though. versus zons, it helps put them into d/a/e lock pretty well (although I use mb setup), versus other assassins it helps get out of stun, versus barbs it sucks but that's why I use mb, versus druids it gives additional stun, versus necs you can get OW (difficult, but sometimes your best choice against very defensive ones), versus pallys whirl-away, down-ww, etc are nice to avoid getting hit, and versus sorcs the OW can rape ES sorcs effectively. So personally, I think it's got its place in nearly every duel. Sometimes it's better than others, but for the price of a few skills I think it's worth it. People are free to disagree, that's why there's other guides.

-ber griffs is fairly useless when you have maxblock setup imo. vex griffs is also pointless when you can toss on infernostrides and get twice the effect (actually more, plus additional fire res) without losing the bp. lo griffs is fine, but considering the difference in damage I'd rather switch for a wisp and have 65 fcr than lo griffs and 102. wisp negates 25% more damage than lo, and if you're allowed to use tgods where you duel, that's even more effective. Imo, if I'm gonna switch gear, I wanna get the maximum effect possible. cham, again, I've got cbf in EVERY duel where i could be chilled, except windys. Jah, well Jah is fine I guess, if you have a 2/3/2 with base IAS feel free to toss a 15/15 and use it. I, personally, don't and I don't think many do, but if I was making a pure trapper that's what I'd use. One of my old guides required a 2/3/2/30+ (despite the fact that I didn't have one ) but it makes the guide so restrictive. Anyway, and as I've said I do have around 2K AR, which is passable with CoS. anyway, trapbased hybrids with chaos + fury have about the same AR as I do.

-you can switch whichever gear you prefer, I think I usually just use dex charms (If you pumped dex for mb, you shouldn't have much of a problem anyway) The only opponents I should be using jade for ought to be very easy with massive stack, so I didn't really design the build to gain a bigger advantage against them. I figure negating cold mastery is good enough that any competent player should win.

thanks for an actual response though, damn things are awfully rare these days.

I think the main reason I don't like kicks is simply the time involved, there's like 5 frames (I'd have to check my action-frame list but I think that's correct) after a teleport, and then 7 frames for the initial kick, that's enough that casters can be gone. and 2K AR isn't too bad if you're using CoS (although obviously it's not always viable and it's sometimes annoying) Like I say, ofc, it's preference. kicks are fine. Personally, I designed this char as a modified hybrid and not so much as a modified trapper (or kicker) so I'm more comfortable with whirlwind, and I like the things you can do with it. Nothing wrong with a kick/trap, that's just not what this build happens to be.

interesting note on the windys, doesn't hurt to try, it I'll check it out.

I just read all the spamwalls...

I have no life...

If only that was true....

even if u use chaos i would skill dt, its just too useful. if you dont believe me, watch my vids.
u hit 12x in 4 frames with ww? i doubt that tbh^^ but well not sure, but sounds utopical.
but yeah, if you call it a matter of preference, then its useless to argue about, still you should mention the possibility, since a guide has to show opportunities, and not "my style is the only style"



well nm makes it much more comfortable ofc
In europe nonladder we duell hell. But thats a point that compromises ur guide to nm, at least you should mention that for hell duellers better res are needed and where to get them from.



zons = w/s much better
vs other assassins = pretty useless cos u cant escape anyway with ww, running with bos is much more effective imo
vs barbs = w/s ofc better
vs necs = the physical dmg is kinda poor on this build or? chaos dmg looks high cos of magical dmg etc, but that doesnt affect the bonearmor :S here are kicks much better dmg-wise, ofc ow is triggered this or that way.
vs hdin = chaos is very nice ofc
vs smiter = w/s is way better imo, and since ur ww neither makes any dmg nor hits, any smiter can just chainlock ur ww down and hit you as he wants.
vs sorcs = kicks better dmg wise imo, ow is kinda same.

so i see the use for it only in duels vs hdin tbh^^ but thats just my point of view, still there is a lack of justification for chaos imo^^



you never play tvts? what u do vs mixed teams with zons/barbs and hammers/necs?
u need a c/c 102fc setup with high dr, also for some 1n1s as an option, therefore griff ber is just an easy source to push dr, imo absolutely necessary.
about the res things i disagree, since i think anything more than 5maxres on a c/c sin is hilarious, you dont really need to duel then anymore, its already easy enough with 80res. Also the last ladder rules capped assa res at 80, and new nl rules will do too imo, so griff vex/lo is the best choice, u keep ur life/fhr/fc/kickdmg and have the res.
Jah is no discussion imo, vs necs or hdin u jsut need life, and u play bos anyway.
Cham is only needed vs orb, even blizzard doesnt freeze long enough to justify a cham, if you ask me.

Well i got a 45ias mainclaw^^ but getting the ias from the mainclaw isnt a problem, ofc u might compromise on the add skills then or sth. also clawbugging makes it pretty easy.

This post was edited by harry_haller on Jul 14 2008 12:20pm

oops, that was a typo O_O i meant you attack 6x in 12 frames. ofc you won't necessarily HIT every time unless they're running, I'm just comparing the number of hitchecks, not actual hits.



I think I actually had a mention of that in one version of the guide. Anyway, it's actually not as large of a problem as you might think, with stash gear it's still possible to function in hell with my gear, the only major annoyances are FoH and cold sorcs, but with more stash gear you could probably cover those too also, rj'ing makes things a lot easier.



damage-wise, it's really more about the OW. that's why the low AR is passable, it's not really intended to do damage via physical or even magical or venom, it's mostly for hit-and-run, in terms of damage, especially since phys requires that you punch through bone armor/ES to do any damage. surprised you'd use w/s versus smiters, but I guess there's different rules for smiters on euro. with enough traps around preventing tele, and whirl-away to make hits difficult if they catch you, i think it works pretty well, that's one of the situations where I really like my chaos. And since they're charging a lot, you can still get hits, although it's really for movement in that duel, mainly. I think we're gonna have to just agree to disagree on this one tbh =/ as retarded as that sounds.



I haven't done much tvt with this build, no =/ planning on doing more in the future, but it's mostly intended as a 1v1 dueler. While I'd like the build to be CAPABLE of tvts, it's designed first for 1v1, and if it's possible to use for tvt, then that's great. and I'd rather have ww vs hdins than a bit more life.

as far as the sorb stuff goes...well, I think I mention it in the (unpublished) intro to my strategy section, but all gear switches are to be used IF NECESSARY. imo, in most duels you don't need them. I've got loads of cold stack available, but that doesn't mean I'd use it against a cold sorc because that makes the duel not fun. If your absolute goal is winning (i.e. you bet 5K fg on it) then yeah, I'd use every gm advantage I could get. But for fun duels, sure I probably wouldn't whip out the strides or the wisp. I think it's my job to list the best gear for each duel, even if it's not necessary. It seems sorta silly to do it half-assed though, imo either go all-out with strides/wisp or don't use any at all. both are gm by the rules I use (d2pk rules), however I don't use spurs or tgods since those aren't. and ofc I don't suggest violating any gm rules.

EDIT: btw I'd use w/s vs a bowa + barb team, and you don't need dr% vs a din + nec team

I don't see why dr% would be a major concern against a team with a bone nec anyway, their amp makes dr% fairly inconsequencial anyway, it basically divides the effectiveness by 2-3.

EDIT on the EDIT: oh yeah, and I used to wsm bug (mentioned in the FAQs) but I don't really like it. first, it means no switching or wsging. second, imo it's somewhat lame imo. I know most people disagree with me on that one, but imo it's a bug and shouldn't be used. but, for people who want to use it, it's in the FAQs.

This post was edited by darcanegel on Jul 14 2008 12:55pm

u need both, wb and dr in tvts. The amp lasts 10secs on a faded sin, so its easy to get rid of it, and then u get hits without amp where u have to have dr again.



sry but u opened a new huge door for flaming your playstyle, since the tactic u just described is pure deftrap camping xD

W/S is therefore better cos u can negate charge hits alot, and the 86fhr is very useful too. and u can defend yourself quite good vs telesmites or any smite attempts, because of the 24/7 mb spam, which makes it kinda impossible for the smiter to telesmite u, which means he has to rely on charging, which is fucked up with storm too.

This post was edited by harry_haller on Jul 14 2008 01:07pm

hmm, well I won't pretend to know much about tvt since I do it so rarely. Like I say though, it's designed for 1v1 first and foremost, so aside for stash gear it's made for 1v1. if you have a 45+ ias GT and ber griffs in stash, then go ahead. I'm sure it would be useful against, say, a barb + nec team. It's just that your examples were bad since one team is blockable with w/s and the other didn't have any phys




hehe, well I like to think of it as passive-aggressive playstyle. I'm usually the pursuer, but as soon as he turns around and starts charging at me, I go into defensive teleport/ww mode. I'd say the goal is to keep a few traps around at all time, while keeping close enough to apply pressure. So I don't stand in one place ofc, but I don't try to get TOO close. generally I think the best place for them to be is at the corners of my screen.

my example was not 2 separate teams, but 1 mixed 4n4 team.
There are alot of opponent teams where u need both, believe me. That what makes it necessary to have Wb aswell as Dr.

but well, just collect your own tvt experiences in the future, i think sooner or later you will agree