Quote (clan_iraq @ Mon, 27 Apr 2009, 23:40)

Whos talking about warshrikes? I think you meant lacerators and that was a typo so I'll go with that.
No.
360 ammunition of lacerators that do between 500 and 27000 effective damage? In a naive interpretation, with deadly strike, they would do 1250 exact HP on average. Thats what, 5 hits to kill a tank of a barbarian? With a 1/8 chance to hit them, thats 40 ammo out of my 360. In reality its actually much lower, but its not 12x that, which is what you'd need for that to be true. But lets do some exact math here for a second.
500-4500 damage'
50% deadly/critical
33% amp

Now remember that after you amp someone, the next few hits are amp for free without needing to proc. So I think its only fair to say that for perhaps 50% of my hits I'll have amp up, even if it only procs at 33%. This is very easy to see in a duel, because my damage will start low and ramp up dramatically often, because after amp lands I'm dealing ludicrous damage. So lets just change amp to be -100% DR with a 50% chance, for sake of making the calculation easier. I think this is a pretty fair number.

So:
2500 average damage becomes 3750 average damage after DS
3750 average damage has a 50% chance to be 312.5 HP, and a 50% chance to be 937.5 HP
= 625 HP, on average.

So my average axe hit would take about 625 HP away. Now, compare that to a 7000 HP barbarian. Thats 10 hits (open wounds rocks socks even at 50% ranged penalty, remember)
So 10 hits, and we said a 1/8 chance to hit on a 'hit' axe. Thats 80 axes. Lets say I miss half my throws just because of a moving target. Thats still only 160/360 axes

Its true, I'll often run out of lacerators dueling against barbs, but heck, I usually start those duels with 40-50 quantity on each axe, and thats because I've already dueled them a few times already. If I did a single duel starting at full ammo I'd never run out of axes. But hey, you're right that its a pain in the ass when you run low on axes because its BvB. But I keep 2x non-eth lacerators in my stash, too. hehehe Problem *solved*

Quote (Faelwen @ Tue, 28 Apr 2009, 00:00)

PS: I want Boomerang projectiles in v1.13.

Edit: AND KATANAS !

Quote (darkkobra @ Tue, 28 Apr 2009, 00:01)

I see what u did tharr!!

Quote (darkkobra @ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 09:58pm)

The thing is - all that mathematics look really nice on a paper. In practice - its a bit different
Its way too easy to avoid straightly flying "projectiles". I could turn my own argument against me here - if the barb namelock-whirls you - you could even use it for you by teleporting 1 screen away and throwing 1-2 axes at him in a straight line, increasing your chances to hit. That would be over as soon as the namelock "breaks" tho.
You still should remember that bvb barb still has that huge def and the chance to block 75% of your axes that will decrease the chance to hit him already "a bit". If you consider that barb is moving (it really is not hard to avoid straightly flying "projectiles", as I already said) it will decrease you chance to hit again a "bit more". To be able to deal that high dmg you have to amp the barb first - what makes you think that the barb wont be even more carefull about not being hit while amped?^^
That decreases your chance to hit him again a "bit more".

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And now - if you consider that your opponent can tele as well while he is able to avoid your attacks and to block 75% of the ones which could deal some dmg - Only chance for you to win vs a bvb barb with doublethrow barb is:
a) to catch him in huge lag
b ) to catch him afk outside of the town.

I dont see the third possibility there

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I told it already - with widow you would have way more chance to kill a bvb than with lacerators (you was right btw, it was a typo with "warshrikes" in my last post).
I wont say that its 100% impossible be lucky and win once - but to claim that you would stand a chance vs bvb barbs with dobulethrow barb is just wrong, if you ask me.

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PS: I want Boomerang projectiles in v1.13.

Quote (clan_iraq @ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 02:51pm)

sigh

I don't want to explain to you how whirlwind works. Any +max damage is treated exactly the same as +weapon damage. Think of whirlwind like this:
At 4 frames, you do a normal attack with your primary target against your target
At 8 frames, you do two normal attacks, one with both weapons on your target
At 12 frames, same as above

so in terms of how the damage is applied, its the exact same formula as a regular attack; the +max damage simply adds to your 'weapon damage'. So yes, you are doing 400 extra 'each check', as in, you are doing 400 more on both weapons, but this figures out to be only +13% overall damage the same as before, because thats just +13% to both your weapons. If it was only +13% to one weapon and not the other, it would only be +6.5% overall. Hope that helps clear it up for you

Quote (sylvannos @ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 10:09pm)

So, we agree that the damage (that 400) is per check?

If that is the case, you are not dealing 400 extra damage per ww....you are dealing over 1k per ww (assuming each check hits).

That's a big difference in my opinion.

Quote (clan_iraq @ Mon, Apr 27 2009, 03:14pm)

I'm not sure what you aren't understanding. You're dealing 13% more overall damage. As in, of all the damage that comes out of your whirlwind from every source, you'll deal 13% more.
Sure, that might be over 1000 damage per whirlwind, but only if you were doing over 7700 damage from that whirlwind to begin with. Imagine it as the difference between a 30,000 damage charge and a 33,900 damage charge on a paladin. Sure, its 3900 damage, sure, but its not that big of a difference, its just slightly more added to an already big number. If you only did 100 damage charge, 113 damage wouldn't ever make you work. Theres no duel where 13% extra damage is going to 'save the day', compared to what stacked resists can do vs -resist characters