I hope you don't mind a correction to your statement...
It has been pointed out that Cookie-Cutter thinkers say chaos as a default weapon is bad on a trapper, however Darc doesn't hide his ingenuity, he tests what he likes best for himself, doesn't take some guy who made a trapper 3 years ago's opinion. No. Thats all you are doing, taking a build you have never tried and saying yours is better because more ppl use it lmao.

lol pathetic post xD

you did correct nothing btw.

And doesnt take other guys' opinion yes? Look what the guide and his knowledge was like until he got the additional infos from players who are well known to trapsins.

chaos as default weapon isnt the best choice, still noone said darc cant make a sin with it. There are all arguments given why its not a good/the best choice in most of the matchups.

and btw moe and i made our trapper build ourselves mostly also, and its superior if u ask me.

still u can make this sin and have fun lol, who cares, but when u write a guide u have to deal with the critics.

errrrrrrr sorry but it is pretty much the other way round.

i have not made a trapper 3 years ago, i am making them FOR 3 years. if you want to mess with someone about assassins (any kind) i am the right person for it.
i played all possible assassin builds that work in pvp over years now, mainly hybrid ww/ls and trappers, but also ghosts and kicksins. so i actually do think that i can very well judge whether a non-damaging (apart from OW) 2k ar whirlwind is justified on this build or not, and while it does have a use sometimes, it is far away from being the best option as default weapon.
WSG is so much faster and more appropriate to get out of trapstun compared to WW it isnt even funny. ww as a defensive measure on a trapper is ONLY (!) benefitable (or, imho, even great) against hammerdins.
so there is only the offensive WW left as a reason for using chaos. and there are better ways for a trapper to deliver OW and you dont lose 2k trap damage by doing so.

so. i hope you dont mind that i do mind your mindless correction to my statement because it was bullshit.

Fireblast > 2k AR WW

In a jam!?


JUST WHIRL!


Fail.

:-)

51 pages ftw...

i think you heavily underestimate whirl-away versus a lot of people. of course, there are people who can handle it with flash-freeze or other methods, but in general it's really pissed off a lot of the smiters/chargers I've dealt with, as well as a lot of other melee opponents. although I think it's probably more useful here on west than on euro, because as I understand it the limitations on slow are much more relaxed on euro...if you're getting hit by massive slow + hf I'm sure whirl-away becomes much less useful.

I would add that the damage....it's actually not THAT BAD lol. And with whirl-away, you can negate defense if they're trying to charge into you. It's not a primary weapon, sure, but if you're skilled with tri-whirls you can kill most casters fairly quickly with it, especially if you use CoS.

i seriously doubt that. coming from years of playing on hybrid, which already didnt have a really strong ww, ww on my trapper feels like scratching a stone. further i have very much experience with defensive whirling because it is indeed often viable on hybrids for it does inflict real instant damage.
and i did indeed test it against different opponents on my trapper and i just feel that it is very weak. it rules against hammerdins, and thats it.

it is true that slow changes much on smiters, but when i can decide between not getting hit AT ALL and whirl-away for possible clawblock and hitchecks i choose not to get hit in the first place.
with max mindblast, you can almost be sure that the smiter will always have swirlies from your SM, and with proper teleporting, smite will never ever hit. it is not really fun to play and semi-defensive, but with some practise you will have the upper hand in those matchups.

and i am still convinced that a seasoned smite player will punish almost every single whirling mistake that you do.


apart from that, ww is not that BAD, but i just think it is not good enough to justify the sacrifices that you have to take in order to have a viable OW source with whirlwind.



open wounds:

damage per frame against another player with melee attacks:
Clvl=61-99: ((45 x Clvl-1319)/256) x 0.25

on lvl95 that is: ((45 x 95 -1319)/256) x 0.25= (4275 - 1319)/256 x 0.25 = 2956/256 x 0.25 = 2.88671875...

OW lasts for 8 seconds, while 1 second consists of 25 frames in d2.

so final OW damage is: 8 x 25 x 2.88671875 ... = 577.34375


you are right, i am wrong.
source was dii-net strategy compendum. i will check whether this source is still viable because i was fairly sure that it did inflict more damage.



/PS: yeah euro nl duels are being held on hell difficulty. last ladder (and the one before the last one i think), eulad pvp was also being held at nightmare and i never saw any real reason for that. getting resists is easy, PI oak is retarded, nerfing poison based attacks is not necessary and mainly those damn mini pots really go on my balls.

This post was edited by Holocauster_Tycoon on Aug 2 2008 01:31pm

well, the arreat summit has the same calculation, so I ASSUME it's correct.

as far as ww-away...i mean, sure, I've dueled smiters who make it hard to use, as mentioned with flash-freeze etc. the vast, vast majority though can't hit me for shiiit. I could literally ww-away across many screens and they'd never hit me. Hopefully, if someone using my guide gets to the point where they're dueling the top players on their realm, they've developed a mind of their own to make their own decision. for general dueling though, it totally rocks.

i don't think the sacrifices are any larger than the ones YOU made for a foolsmod on your assassin, are they? O_O if anything, they're a bit less.

also, I'd add that heavily-desynching smiters can be very hard to judge sometimes, and if your shadow fails to mindblast them, you won't necessarily know where to teleport or where to mindblast. whirl-away can make that a helluva lot easier, since you only have to know where they're coming from, not where they are, exactly. at least, that's MY experience.

in 95% of all duels against good smiters, i dont get hit by smite at all. if i get hit, it will be charge and i have minion stack and maxblock which makes it very hard to get hit.

when i use a fools claw, i lose 2 to all skills and have 50% ow at 9.x k AR. when you use chaos, you lose 2 to all skills and have no ar and 25% ow on one claw. so if you really want to use ww to inflict OW effectively, you will undoubtedly have to use a 50OW fools primary, which means you already would lose +4 to all skills while i can choose my secondary claw, at the moment 2sin 3ls 2mb 2fade 2sock GTs. and i can socket 2x 7fhr/15prism or fhr/@nything whiel chaos is a rw.
thats what i meant.

if you only use ww-away and a trapclaw primary, you wont lose +4 but +2 and the sockets. but in duels where you use ww away, i will be using WS or 2 trapping claws.
so i was mainly refering to caster duels.


/E: and if i do not know where my opponent is AT ALL, i will set up a close enough trap field including 1-2 WoFs and teleport like a grashopper to make sure he WILL get MBed.

This post was edited by Holocauster_Tycoon on Aug 2 2008 01:53pm

honestly, you don't need high AR to make it work. I've got around 2K AR, and that's plenty to hit most casters with OW off a quick whirlwind, especially if you use CoS. against paladins, sure, your only good chance of OW is with whirl-away usually, but with your kicking setup you wouldn't be able to get OW against a smiter effectively ANYWAY. So even if I don't have a GREAT chance to get OW against them, it's still better than yours and it's really not bad, I get OW against smiters pretty often tbh. however, I would say that it's really important to get AR on rings for the spider, otherwise you end up with ~1K AR which is just too low. 2K AR is fine, and you can potentially get up around 2.5K i think.

This post was edited by darcanegel on Aug 2 2008 02:03pm