1. you do not freeze your enemies with grief = you receive more damage with grief+ you have less off weapon enhanced damage because you have to stat more life and mmore dex (though this is very little)
2. damagewise grief with highlords is better than death with highlords, when one is not looking at the 35-50% more cb with death, which normally mean more than 1000 damage extra per strike
we can also play death with atma's ammy and then grief is pretty much getting it's butt kicked from here to the moon...

versus bosses you smite until you make more damage with zeal than with smite
let's simply say it like this..
with death and zeal you can still get a cth of more 70% on baal (lvl 88+ char with 9k ar) with a zeal strike you deal more than 10000 damage pyhsical + cb (but you still use smite to get in the first hits if you lack AR)
sorry but that is more damage than grief can deal

how long does your grief build need versus baal?(and on how many players?)

HE'S ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and has apparently grown some patience in his time off

nay I have not become patient.. the question was okay and deserved a good answer

by the way, did you check all the frenzy ias stuff as of late?

i recently posted a new version of the guide to fix the mistake

I'l take a look at it

Well, Hmm let me see. Going back to the very first page and reading,

Guillaume`s Face is by far NOT the best helm there is. That depends on a lot of things. Personally I think Dream is a much better helm. Again, I have used them both.
Armor...I agree either Fort or COH will work nice. I have used both.
Shield, I have used them all and currently use a Phoenix as my main shield. Also before anyone slams Phoenix I dont give a rats ass, it works for me and I like it. My base shield had 45 resist.
Gloves,.. I agree LOH and Dracs are both excellent choices. I also use a pair of Upped perfect 20% bloodfist too. I have used all 3.
Belts...its hard to beat TGod. I use it on my barb, Zeal pally and fury druid.
Rings,..I agree. Raven is a must have and I also have duel leach stat ring on this guy.
Ammy I agree, Highlord has worked best for me. I have tried others. This really depends on what you need or are lacking in such as resist.
Weapon,..GriefZ will out kill a DeathZ anytime any day. The EdeathZ is good dont get me wrong it also will kill Baal quicker with the 50% CB but nothing in the game compaires to GriefZ. I say this because I have all the runewords in Zerkers and have tried them all with different setups. My zeal pally is lvl 91.5 Ill be happy to show all my axes if anyone cares to see them. Ill be on US East ladder tonight. Kisssofdeath is this accounts name

I dont have any trouble killing PI monsters with my grief, Dream and Phoenix setup. Not any trouble what-so-ever. For Obv. Knights and IM I simply swith to a bow, either Faith, Wrath or lovely and talented 5 guided arrow Widowmaker. This character has no trouble running any part of the game solo. I dont even have a pally torch. Again, Ill be on US East ladder tonight. Kisssofdeath is this accounts name

I love it when simpletons like you try to open their mouths and exhale lots of hot air.
thanks for showing that you have not really read the guide at all.

let's see
dream offers a lvl 15 hsh aura, nnot synergized that means lovely 300 damage/strike
gulli offers ~ the same damage increase as a fortitude with it's 15% deadly strike, this means that you would only need a wepon that deals an average damage of 76 to deal more damage than the dream helmet has to offer
(i coudl go into detail but I knwo that that is too complicated for you)

coh.. other things offer more and cost less, hence not really a good armor

phoenix is only a damageloss and nothing more. it is worthless

why a dualleech ring? zeal needs 2 mana... no use for it and leech does nto work versus PI, so ml is useless even if oyu use vengeance

the problem is that the death berserker has Amplified damage in it's setup, otherwise the zerker is no choice anyway) ... additional -50% resistances.. sorry but that is far better than grief, not to mention the other arguments which make death outshine grief (aka you receive less damage and so on)

I could go on but hey.. you insult yourself... go on that is fun to simply show that you don't know what you are talking about

I dont have time to read this entire post and will not. I based what I said from your opening post. If you made changes then point me there and I will read that one.

It appears you have double standards as what you are saying above differs from your original post.
COH was ok when you mentioned it as your second armor but now you say its not really a good armor.

You mention duel leach ring as your second ring...but now we dont need it?? Really double standard to suite yourself when the need comes. Both the armor and rings were your choice but now they are not any good. lol funny.

Why do you fail to mention the other aspects of the runeword Dream? You FAILED to mention:

10% chance to cast confuse, which monsters will not attack you.
Lvl 15 Holy shock. Well last time I checked, some damage was better than no damage. Besides it does add around 400 damage to your weapon.
10 to Vitality
5-20% resist. My 3 Dreams made good with 16,17 and 18 resist.
12-25% MF
Around 200 more Defence
An increase in Max life of 5%
A large amount if mana increase

All of that is useful and found on Dream will not on Guilm. I can get a high lvl of CS and CB without the use of Guilm helm. Honestly Guilm helm is not that good. I have played both a lot. Its not a bad helm....just not near the best as YOU say it is. But you wont admit that and I dont expect you to with your type of know-it-all attitude.

I forgot to mention boots. Gores are nice but for PvM Travs are the only real choice I would put Travs in front of Gores.

The only real place CB and Critical Strike makes any difference is with high lvl bosses. Most monsters are killed with 1-2 hits anyway.

If you are gonna post a guide you need to learn to accept constructive criticism. You should know that by now.

I love it when people open their mouths that do not have the slightest idea of what they are talking about,.


coh is okay, however if the price is taken into consideration, I would never bother with it.
fortitude is better
selfbuild armor is better
lionheart and duress are the price/performance winners

other armors have things that can make them better, f.e. when looking at the stats.
f.e. if I really need 6x prisma from my armorslot, then I'd rather use a treachery and have the 45 ias which means I can use certain weapons in a different setup (f.e. schaeffers with ED instead of shael) and thus gain more

to the rings:

the problem is here that i am referring to leechrings in general, a zeal is pretty much the only melee attack which does not need any ML, however.. I am fully aware of the fact that DL rings are far mroe often traded or looked for or kept while crafting and thus it is never bad to mention that stuff.
however I do expect a reader to use his own brains as to wether he/she actually need ML when the attack only needs 2 mana



let's see
Confuse is actually a downside...
1. it overrides decrepefy if you rely on that which means a: more immunes, 2. hugedamageloss
2. if you rely on LT that gets overridden and thus you loose safety

the lvl 15 holy shock aura is let's say it like this.. a useless gimmick
it adds 1-648 lightning damage, aka 324 average lightning damage. you cannot synergise it properly because you lack the skillpoints and you do not really have any -resistances on your equipment to boost it either

10 to vitality= wayne.. physical damage is youre life insurance because damage= killspeed, monsters die sooner and hurt you less and you leech more.
max life = see vitality

mana= does not matter as we have previously discussed in the "no ml necessary discussion"

defense= does not matter you have a 2 frame blockspeed and can get enough defense to get hit with a chance of 3-6%

12-25% mf... if you want mf on a zealot, use a crown of thieves or a stealskull those have mroe mf and even useful stats, however even on a MF zealot a guillaume's face is the best helmet, everythign else is just a damageloss too big to be even taken into consideration. MF is about as much killspeed as possible when you read further, you will know why your idea is retarded.


5-20% prismatic resistances: let#s see you loose far mroe damage than you would if you simply used some priosmatic charms if you still needed resistances
you have anya, a shield and an armor and other pieces of equipment which offer resistances.. sorry but no worries


I will give you a simple example why not choosing Guillaume's face is an instant fail.
1. you loose 35% cb
2. you loose the 30% fhr which you need as minimum on this build
3. you loose 15% deadly strike
this means a lot... but hey, let's simply give you a simple calculation of how much that is
a Fanazealot can easily achieve 1000% off weapon ewd with strength,mightmerc,zeal and Fana
deadly strike is a chance to double your damage aka you deal damage with 2000% off weapon ed
15% chance to do that means that the overall gain of using a guillaume's face is
(2000/100)*15=300
so you loose 300% off weapon ed, that is the equivalent of a FORTITUDE

or let's say it differently..
with a weapon that deals 200 average damage (low oath) f.e. that means a loss of 600 physical damage (which can be boosted by decrepefy/AD and which you can leech of)
let's compare that to a death ettin, that one has an average damage (in the right setup) of ~ 360 so gulli means 1080 average damage gained for that weapon
or let#s take a grief, with an average damage of ~ 400 so that is 1200 damage/strike gained


wether gores or travs depends on the weapon.. in a non AD setup with death, death cleaver or headstriker the wt's are better, otherwise gores are the best option.


okay let us continue...

as we have seen from the wrath thread, a hell venom lord has 12000 hitpoints on players 1....
on players 8 he has more than 48000 hitpoints
and you want to kill that in one hit without proper deadly strike and/or crushing blow...
sorry dude but that is not possible, even my highest end zealot could only one hit ko those on players 1 and 2 and that one had an average damage of 18000 damage/strike

seriously.. better luck next time and please put in some effort.
if you wanna critisize something, make sure that you actually can and stop owning yourself

again: I demand opponents and not victims

if i'd give in to you, we'd both be wrong

This post was edited by Ancalagon on Jan 12 2010 04:09pm

Not a problem. I have tried everything you have said. Armor, weapons ect. You talk all about numbers and stat BS. but you fail to know what actually works in the game. I bet you never tried Dream. You find one thing that work and its the LAW. LOL, I experiement with a lot of different setups and a lot of different setups will work. For certain builds, I know for a fact what works and what doesnt. Just because I started posting a few days ago doesnt mean anything. But I understand thats how most new people are treated anyway so it doesnt suprise me. I guess what I should do is agree to all of what you said. Hey, if that puts you higher on YOUR pedestal then I agree and you are our saviour to bad builds.

Say what you want I have said my peace and done with this thread. I have made my point and have nothing else to say to your "my way or the highway" type attitude.