ok well seeing this build makes me wonder what you would say of mine T.T

currently using:

Andy's 15ias/7lr jewel
P Ap CoH
Ss 15res/-15req jewel
67%cb Lwz
Arach (For slow down and +skills)
2/21 Dancers
Dracs +15str almost p def p ll
20/16 torch
decent anni

Switch:
6/5 cta cs
lidless

Haven't had a chance to rock any ubers yet sadly enough T.T Tell me what you think

Andy's is for the +35ias I get with it skillz str and ll btw andy's is a perf one

I really love this build...my kicksin is pvm atm,2xclaw with malice for that 100%ow...I'll get all pvp gear soon
Very nice guide m8

I think I'll try this build for fun and use it as a dc-killer.
I just need to ask some things about the kickspeed. You say that -40 attackspeed is needed, but you don't tell us how to reach that. Pb = -30, but how to get the remaining -10?
Is 10% ias the same as -10 attackspeed? And how many fpa is -40?

Mediocre guide, but I vouch an asn built like this will destroy the ubers solo.

A few notes about your guide:
"-Get -40 attack speed w/o BoS, to reach Breakpoint."
The bp for 7/3 kicks on fade with -30wsm weapon is 46ias, 17ias for 8/3 kicks
Where is the ias in your build? I don't see that mentioned anywhere. without any ias and a LWPB you have 10/4 (WTF SLOW) kicks, 5ias and you will have 9/3, I recommend you resocket guillaumes to res/ias and you will see a huge improvement bringing your followup kicks to 3 frames each instead of 4.
"-Venom : 20 (Even if dmg dont add on the screen, it does in real game, same for any other magical dmg.)"
Poison and OW are methods of prevent monster heal on ubers since PMH from items does not work on them. Since 20 venom on a CB build only adds trivial damage, one option I've heard trist kicksins opt for is to have venom off and use a 290 for 20 guaranteed seconds of no healing. It's not really too much of an issue since you should be able to re-proc OW often enough though.
"9 Martial gc ; 2 X 12% fhr , 3 X 7% frw and lifers for the rest, try to get 30+"
imo 120+ ar gcs > MA for ubers. AR is really what you are looking for with the +MA, I think it's worth giving up an extra kick vs ubers for higher AR with 1 less kick.

Also another nitpick I have with this guide is while it gives different gear options, it doesn't look at the alternate gear as a group, only replacements for what you recommend as the "primary" choice of equipment for each slot. I think it's important for players attempting to build a trist kicksin without unlimited funds to look more at the overall goals on a setup and not just final equipment for a particular build.

As I see it being effective in uber trist requires:

Primary goal - kill ubers fast:
High % cb
High ar

Survival goal - since dying is obviously not an option:
stacked resists
lifetap (it can be done without lifetap but it really helps a lot)
75% block with SS
mindblast

When looking at these goals from a perspective of a player without all your final gear choices, if they opt for ber'd fleshripper over LWPB, suddenly up'd Gores over Dancers or Duress over CoH look like better gear choices. But of course they don't fit in your final setup the way you recommend it.

Having completed trist with a few different kicksins I can vouch for that it can be done with a lot less gear than you recommend, although not as fast. Really the main difference in killing speed of the ubers (assuming the survival goals of a kicksin are complete) is in if the character can proc CB as much as possible. This means landing successful CB% with successful AR% rolls on as many unblocked attacks as possible. My current kick/trap hybrid is much slower at killing ubers than my previous pvm kicksin which had higher ar, despite having tried a near identical setup to trist with on both.


Another gear setup I would recommend for a LWPB trist kicksin is instead of using
dracs
sdancers
guillaumes
maras
ravens

to use
10%cb/20ias/Stat Gloves
Up'd Gores
Kiras
Angelics

This will give you higher AR (aka procing CB more faster more successful hits) with a loss of hp from higher stat investment. You can possibly reach 17+ breakpoint for 8/3 kicks with dracs by ias/res guillaumes and stormshield, but you don't do that.


btw lol @ all the comments in this thread. The pvp stuff made me laugh.

Other comments:
This kicksin is geared towards tristing and nothing else. It can pvm, just nowhere near the speed of a more everywhere-pvm oriented kicksin or kick/trap hybrid with Jah'd Stormlash + maxed death sentry.

Duel?

PvP
and PvM kicksins are very different, it wouldn't be a different version
of this guide but a whole other build with different goals.

Lol. Just Lol.

This post was edited by Ziecheik on Dec 15 2006 06:53pm

First : About the speed ... It's suppose to be a 15%ias/1x Res jewels in the Guillaume. It's missing an update, thanks for pointing that out. I will add a IAS breakpoint section any time soon.

Second : 13 k Ar is sufficient , I prefer MA gcs over AR gc. And i should add Metalgrid as an option for ammys as it could give more Ar if you really want more.

Third : Dracs gives 25% OW wich is sufficient to make sure that ubers wont cure. No need for psn charms, and venom is definively better then psn charms. And 25% > 15% Ow from gores. Since i acheive 100% cb , no need for cb gloves. And more tap the better.

Fourth : With a sufficient pool of life and max dr, high stack res, you dont really need max block to survive. A 60% will suffice.

You're ignoring this one? :S

err doubepost sorry.

This post was edited by Ziecheik on Dec 16 2006 05:24pm

Im still not understanding the point of MA gcs.
What do they give you? The only skill they increase that is relevant is dtalon, physical damage on a CB kicksin isn't important, that leaves the only AR and an additional kick as the bonus MA gcs give you.
Looking at a 8/3 kick burst with 7 kicks you get an average of 3.72 frames per attack over time, with 6 kicks - 3.8 average fpa, 5 kicks - 4 average fpa. That is the bonus MA gcs will give you in ubers. Now lets take AR, kickers are not smiters, kicks require AR to land. Sure 13kAR is "enough" to kill the ubers, I've killed the ubers on a kicksin with 5k AR, but it was very slow.
So it can be done with less, but the question is, can it be done faster? I think I would pick 17k+ AR with a 5 kick burst over a 13k 7 kick burst.
Sure it's not "necessary" because Ubers can be killed on a lot more welfare of a kicksin, however the point still remains that any AR gcs will give a much large bonus towards accomplishing your task than MA.
Seriously MA gcs are useless.

Venom is still fairly trivial damage vs ubers maxed out. What Im saying about the poison sc is that although its unnecessary for the build as you have it because you should proc OW often enough, its a PMH option players with lower ar who don't hit the consistantly enough may want to opt for. The cb gloves were mentioned for an alternate setup. Obviously if you are using LWPB + guillaumes there is no need for additional CB%, and for yoursetup, yes dracs work great, but there is more than one way to make the goals needed to complete trist with a kicksin, and I think your guide lacks those alternate build suggestions.

Builds need to be looked at as a whole, not as individual items. An example of this: obviously you're not going to slap on Duress with LWPB + guillaumes, but a kicksin building around another weapon might find that armor choice to suit them a lot more than yours. Likewise for the rest of the items in a setup. You may find dracs to work on your build, a LWPB/kiras/gores setup could profit more from cb/ias/stat gloves.

If it works for you, great, let it keep working.
imo a "guide" on the subject should offer several alternatives and really point out what the relevant goals are of a setup as a whole for completly trist, not to give one endgame setup that works for you, there are other options in building a kicksin for trist and being successful.

I guess this is true, but imo it does help to have block. The ubers arn't that difficult, they can be done on a lot less than what you have listed, I hear in other forums people use lawbringer in trist on a kicksin and still kill them ez, but it can be done faster. Likewise 60% block will suffice, but more block over a bit less hp on a pvmer is still better imo.


Just my opinions. >.>

Yeah by -40 i mean pb (-30) and 10 additional speed bonus. Like i stated in my last reply its supposed to be a 15 ias/1x res jewels in the guillaume.



Defetively not bad, but i woulndt use arach, you dont gain that much bonuses from it. Also Andys is a good helm, but the -fire res will definitvely not help with ubers. And i dont recall if 35% is sufficient to break the last breakpoint, i know that 10% ias will grant you the one before.

This post was edited by hofx2 on Dec 17 2006 09:20am

No it's not, this guide is just written poorly, -40 attackspeed is a random number, you do not just add ias on to wsm.

For the proper breakpoints for kick:

CODE

Dragon Talon Initial Kick EIAS Table: EIAS Fpa -30 18 -27 17 -23 16 -18 15 -13 14 -7 13 0 12 9 11 19 10 31 9 45 8 63 7

CODE

Dragon Talon Follow-Up Kick EIAS Table: EIAS Fpa -30 6 -19 5 0 4 34 3

Copied from JRichard's assassin breakpoint thread:


This means with a last wish phase blade, you have -30 wsm, meaning on fade you will get:
46 ias = 7/3 kick
17 ias = 8/3 kick
5 ias = 9/3 kick
1 ias = 9/4 kick
no ias = 10/4 kick

For comparison on a last wish (0 wsm) brezerker axe:
133 ias = 7/3 kick
no ias = 12/4 kick


If you want to figure out bps for other weapons, use the EIAS tables and the conversion formula, once again you do not just add -30 wsm with 10ias, that is a bad understanding of how kick bp mechanics work.