Quote (Skibum @ 29 Jul 2011 19:50)

you forgot to factor in the dmg boast you have from shadows vs the dbl dmg percent from gores, and hit rate% for each claw given the loss of ar.  if we want to go completely mathematical. 
ghosts don't have very high physical dmg as is, so a higher base dmg modified by a lower chance of doing dbl dmg will average out to higher dmg than a lower dmg with a little more ds.  for my sin, they're practically = mathematically.

Quote (Skibum @ 29 Jul 2011 21:50)

you forgot to factor in the dmg boast you have from shadows vs the dbl dmg percent from gores, and hit rate% for each claw given the loss of ar.  if we want to go completely mathematical. 
ghosts don't have very high physical dmg as is, so a higher base dmg modified by a lower chance of doing dbl dmg will average out to higher dmg than a lower dmg with a little more ds.  for my sin, they're practically = mathematically.
/e i never got around to checking gore + guili its on my things to look into though

Quote (MoXeR @ Jul 29 2011 02:55pm)

wouldnt look at the scs taking this into count but at the horrible fools
thats the reason why its not worth making a hit with ds basically
he might did some testing but i guess the guy who he tested mirrow with had also pretty similar claws
y he has gclaw but face it
the claw that i expect to hit is the fools cause it has all the ar on it
and it has no dmg...

Quote (tudey @ Jul 29 2011 02:58pm)

dmg boost being what, the dex?

but yea well i didnt include hit rates becouse i couldn't be arsed to do it ^__^
it would be very possible to calculate which setup is mathematically undeniably better but it requires a bit too much time and i just cant be bothered to do it. point here was basicly that those cb and extra ow can make a lot of difference. the deadly strike is roughly cancelled out by the a bit higher average damage and lower chance to hit but you still have that crushing blow and ow

I don't know if its enough to beat dancers but gores should certainly be something to try ingame too

Quote (Azn Masta @ 29 Jul 2011 20:55)

good catch on the defense haha, i figured shadows = more defense since its a higher "class" boot.

as for the damage, yea obviously gores will do more damage, but not that much more unless u trade hits in a line (which doesnt happen often in sin v sin).

i think the loss in life is about... 100 or so.

but what i really like about dancers is the fhr. which in ghost v ghost is often a battle of "timing" and "precise stomps." unlike 65fcr/27fhr builds, the 42 build is slower when your opponent is spamming mindblast non stop. the 48fhr is just enough hto allow you to namelock + stomp on him and ww as hes in the middle of performing mb spam. 27fhr isnt enough to get out of that kind of lock unless you use 65fcr (which we already determined is weaker) and u would be forced to endure all of the damage until you ww to safety. that is a major perk as it allows you to get "free hits".

but yea... i havent tested the build gface + gores myself yet.... however 2 of my friends (#2 and #3 on ghost v ghost ladder) have both tested it. in the end, i didnt notice that much of a difference... in fact, when they used 48fhr, i had to be more on "guard" to avoid getting stomp'd while im spamming mb on them.




my ghost gets like 2600ish physical and 1400ish poison damage... the other numbers come from random elemental/magic damage

Quote (Azn Masta @ 29 Jul 2011 20:03)

i have tested with a stronger fools (friend's) and i did hit harder... however i've been lookin for a "GG" fools with 2socs and eth etc.... still cant find one. but u shouldnt over look the knockback... with a pro timed ww, kb will knock your opponent into your path for more even more hits. it can also prevent your opponent from landing any hits at all if they try to stomp you and u are wwing away

btw, are u on east? if so would u like to ghost v ghost me for fun?

Quote (MoXeR @ 29 Jul 2011 21:48)

nah im on eu :/
well y the kb mod is basically only good when you ww away from a smiter

on the claw
i believe a eth claw having only 400ed ~ or 250ed and fools is already enough to beat your fools
i wouldnt go for the creampie adds as the base claw with its dmg output alone is the factor that counts for the ghost

also i wouldnt check the max dmg but the average dmg of the claw
ferals have a huge gap here for eample

http://i56.tinypic.com/i3rmf4.jpg

thats pretty much the best that you could get out of a feral but the average dmg is pretty low compared to other bases
but it does have the traplay...though im not into that idea of max traplayspeed on ghosts

http://oi54.tinypic.com/vsbzf7.jpg

Feral 131-362 (246,5 average)
Warfist 251-349 (300 average)

thats might doesnt seam to much cause you get trap lay with the other claw...
but when you look closer
300-246,5= 53,5/1,5 = 35,6666667
the warfist is by 36x 3 max dmg scs stronger than the feral (and its also the claw that you expect to hit)
and you seam to consider a 3 max dmg boost beeing alot
also the warfist has lower ed......

Quote (reyrol @ 30 Jul 2011 01:13)

i use it on hybsin, where traplayspeed, like you say, matters a lot = trap damage output

the only drawback of using wsm buged wf + runic (fastest claw combo + highest average damage fools claw possible btw) is that you got fools as offhand and you loose the first free hitcheck with fools, but get it with chaos (lower ar & dmg if dont have zbug) instead.

wf + runics is a way to go for best average damage + speed, but you loose the intital free hitcheck, just that

BUT

since there arent zbug runic chaos claw, unless u wanna use eth runic chaos with dura like KD does > bm, the zbug chaos suwayyah + fast fools claw is better ( specially an eth feral like mine )

2x eth claw FTW, imo theres no discussion about it, is there?

@moxer

don't try things in heroeditor vs monsters, try them @ open bnet vs chars instead, believe me ^^

http://i51.tinypic.com/28m2aw.jpg