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Jul 8 2017 05:38pm
edit. i make mistake

Quote (Arelax @ Jul 8 2017 05:25pm)
Faith of ice isnt a 10% drop in damage compared to GMB

factor in pvp penalty and the fact that FOI will have greater chance to do double damage due to 20% ds, and the drop is minimal. if your opponent has 50DR then its even less.

When looking at average damage, GMB to FOI is about a 1% average damage drop.

FOI to Diamond is about a 9% damage drop. (0DR)

FOI is the best setup. GMB is better if DR or TGODS is not needed.

Diamond/shadow sacrifice too much damage for 150life(30str/20dex), 20@res(aka 12max dmg), 1% crit, and 1-2% passives.


mistake in my maths when calculating shit.
these are my numbers

Avg damage (assume opponent has 0 DR)
GMB - 786
FOI - 740
Shadow - 705

with 50DR obviously the damage is half

so you need to decide if more life/DR/rep/etc is worth the dmg loss in each situation.

personally, I like FOI + tgods vs light chars, and foi + dungos vs phys dmg chars
obviously i use GMB + nos vs hammerdin/nec

I dont see the need to drop damage even lower with a shadow/diamond to use a rare helm to gain ~150 life (30str/20dex)

This post was edited by Arelax on Jul 8 2017 05:52pm
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Jul 8 2017 07:50pm
ZvA nowadays is a lot different than ZvA 5-10 years ago when all the goods still played.
You had to use the javside much more often than the bowside.
Here is a quick break down of the difference in use of bowside vs. javside vs. and the difficulty of the opponents in these situations:
HARD - ZvA vs. BvA = Little to no play on bowside at all. Stay javside or die.
HARD - ZvA vs. Ghost = Little to no play on bowside at all. Stay javside or die.
HARD - ZvA vs. Charger/Smiter, Tele/Smiter, V/T = Little to no play on bowside at all. Stay javside or die.
MEDIUM - ZvA vs. Hammerdin with Grief = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play.
MEDIUM - ZvA vs. Necromancers = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play. Though if it is maxblock you'll find yourself 100% javside trying to land OW with light bolt/swordback.
MEDIUM - ZvA vs. Trapper = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play. Though if she is W/S maxblock you'll find yourself 100% javside trying to land OW with light bolt/swordback.
MEDIUM - ZvA vs. Druid = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play. Again, if he's maxblock you'll find yourself 100% javside trying to land OW with light bolt/swordback.
EASY - ZvA vs. Sorc = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play vs. maxblock only. 100% javside play for light bolt/swordback OW if she is EShield or 100% bowside with lacerator amp switch glitch works as well against EShield.
EASY - ZvA vs. CSer or other aggressive tele-stomp style hyrbids = About 50/50 bowside vs javside.
BALANCED - ZvA vs. ZvA or simply ZvZ in general = 80% bowside and 20% javside.
EASY - ZvA vs. Straight Hammerdin = This you can stay 100% bowside.

It boils down to this:
That increase in bow damage is working less than half of the time the ZvA is dueling.
The increase in sustain works all the time that the ZvA is dueling and it comes with no loss in damage javside.
The hard matches that ultimately test the ZvA's hard limits within the game engine, are all played almost 100% javside.
Those are the matches that force the ZvA into a situation where it can't kite and it must trade blows with the opponent.
Those match outcomes are decided by who deals more damage and who can tank harder. This is why the Diamond ZvA setup is based around javside, not bowside.
The matches that allow 50/50 bow/jav or higher bow use, are the easier matches. If the zon is allowed bow, it can dance and not get hit.
If the zon beats those opponents with a GMB, chances are high that it would beat them with a Diamond swap or even a Riphook for all it matters.
Because the reason it is winning the match is not by trading blows but by being smart with positioning, WSGing and knowing how to punish the opponent while playing defensively.

ZvZ is completely different.
Bow damage is the most important here and ZvZ has no use of Enigma whatsoever.
Such is not the case in ZvA. Very good opponents are just all over the ZvA the entire match.
Again, this simply cuts out a large margin of bow play and more often than not, forces javside play.

Even so, there are 3x matches in ZvA that I'd say Normal GMB Faith setup is better and it isn't really because of the GMB, it's because of the Nosferatu.
- vs. Necro
- vs. Trapper
- vs. Straight Hammerdin
and this is because most if not all of incoming damage is not physical.
The Nosferatu 10% slow is great vs. the Clay Golem to slow it's swings and it's great to slow the Trapper's ias.
Against the Hammerdin, it's just nice to have the extra damage.
But even against the Necro and Trapper, it's the 10% slow that is making the duels easier. Having a GMB on is just optimization to go along with the 10%ias off Nosferatu.

This post was edited by TSBoyer on Jul 8 2017 07:59pm
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Jul 8 2017 08:36pm
Quote (TSBoyer @ Jul 8 2017 08:50pm)
ZvA nowadays is a lot different than ZvA 5-10 years ago when all the goods still played.
You had to use the javside much more often than the bowside.
Here is a quick break down of the difference in use of bowside vs. javside vs. and the difficulty of the opponents in these situations:
HARD - ZvA vs. BvA = Little to no play on bowside at all. Stay javside or die.
HARD - ZvA vs. Ghost = Little to no play on bowside at all. Stay javside or die.
HARD - ZvA vs. Charger/Smiter, Tele/Smiter, V/T = Little to no play on bowside at all. Stay javside or die.
MEDIUM - ZvA vs. Hammerdin with Grief = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play.
MEDIUM - ZvA vs. Necromancers = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play. Though if it is maxblock you'll find yourself 100% javside trying to land OW with light bolt/swordback.
MEDIUM - ZvA vs. Trapper = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play. Though if she is W/S maxblock you'll find yourself 100% javside trying to land OW with light bolt/swordback.
MEDIUM - ZvA vs. Druid = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play. Again, if he's maxblock you'll find yourself 100% javside trying to land OW with light bolt/swordback.
EASY - ZvA vs. Sorc = About 50/50 bowside play vs. javside play vs. maxblock only. 100% javside play for light bolt/swordback OW if she is EShield or 100% bowside with lacerator amp switch glitch works as well against EShield.
EASY - ZvA vs. CSer or other aggressive tele-stomp style hyrbids = About 50/50 bowside vs javside.
BALANCED - ZvA vs. ZvA or simply ZvZ in general = 80% bowside and 20% javside.
EASY - ZvA vs. Straight Hammerdin = This you can stay 100% bowside.

It boils down to this:
That increase in bow damage is working less than half of the time the ZvA is dueling.
The increase in sustain works all the time that the ZvA is dueling and it comes with no loss in damage javside.
The hard matches that ultimately test the ZvA's hard limits within the game engine, are all played almost 100% javside.
Those are the matches that force the ZvA into a situation where it can't kite and it must trade blows with the opponent.
Those match outcomes are decided by who deals more damage and who can tank harder. This is why the Diamond ZvA setup is based around javside, not bowside.
The matches that allow 50/50 bow/jav or higher bow use, are the easier matches. If the zon is allowed bow, it can dance and not get hit.
If the zon beats those opponents with a GMB, chances are high that it would beat them with a Diamond swap or even a Riphook for all it matters.
Because the reason it is winning the match is not by trading blows but by being smart with positioning, WSGing and knowing how to punish the opponent while playing defensively.

ZvZ is completely different.
Bow damage is the most important here and ZvZ has no use of Enigma whatsoever.
Such is not the case in ZvA. Very good opponents are just all over the ZvA the entire match.
Again, this simply cuts out a large margin of bow play and more often than not, forces javside play.

Even so, there are 3x matches in ZvA that I'd say Normal GMB Faith setup is better and it isn't really because of the GMB, it's because of the Nosferatu.
- vs. Necro
- vs. Trapper
- vs. Straight Hammerdin
and this is because most if not all of incoming damage is not physical.
The Nosferatu 10% slow is great vs. the Clay Golem to slow it's swings and it's great to slow the Trapper's ias.
Against the Hammerdin, it's just nice to have the extra damage.
But even against the Necro and Trapper, it's the 10% slow that is making the duels easier. Having a GMB on is just optimization to go along with the 10%ias off Nosferatu.


valid points.
I think it comes down to style of play then.
Because I use bow on all opponents. Ofc some i use jav more than others, but still bow at some points. and I think the higher bow dmg is better than the 150life or so you gain from rare helm.
plus, if youre going to have setups to swap on a faith gmb + 120/45, then you cant build around your helms str/dex, in which case the best you can get is a 60life helm, and 60 life def aint worth the sacrifice in damage from foi.
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Jul 8 2017 11:30pm
9/10
Nice guide. Swordback is not my first choice for zvz, though.
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Jul 9 2017 02:32am
old but gold
worth red bold
im stone cold

ice/10
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Jul 12 2017 04:02pm
Some important notes before I forget:

All Javelins can spawn (Valkyrie's +2 to all skills)
Only Matriarchal has the special +3 Javelin Skills


Matriarchal Javelin
Throw --> 35 To 66 (50.5 Avg)
1-Hand --> 30 To 54 (42 Avg)
Max Stack: 80

Winged Harpoon
Throw --> 11 to 77 (44 Avg)
1-Hand --> 27 to 35 (31 Avg)
Max Stack: 80

Hyperion Javelin
Throw --> 28 to 55 (41.5 Avg)
1-Hand --> 21 to 57 (39 Avg)
Max Stack: 100

-------

Stronger alternative gear swaps for vs. Druid, still GM

Add these into the Amazon's stashed gear setups:
Get an 8% ll and 15% DR String of Earts
Get an 11% ll Crafted Blood ring with other supportive damage mods (+dex / +9 min)


GM Zon vs. Druid - .08 Vampire Gaze -- Jeweler's of Whale -- String of Ears -- Blood Ring 11% LL -- Phoenix Shield
This setup will provide 27% life leech against Druid Summon recasts
ZvD can be a very easy match up or one of the most difficult, depending on how experienced the Druid is
Experienced max FCR Vita Druids are usually more dangerous than max block Druids
Max block Druids lose a frame of FCR and believe it or not, matters everything for their ability to get away from Fury and Guided Arrow namelocks
You'll find that max block Druids are much easier to avoid and namelock than a good max FCR Vita Druid
Max FCR Vita Druids (If experienced), are fast at getting in and out, resummoning for cover and escpaing namelocks in general
A good Druid will never stay on-screen stomping you unless he has his summon cover up, this makes them very difficult to hit

Basics:
* Multi-Shot the Druid's summons down before he gets on-screen
* Learn well to WSG out of telestomping Druids, Tornado creates aweful frame locks to an Amazon
* Only move left, right and directly down while WSGing out of telestomps
* Namelock the Guided Arrow as soon as the summons are down but always be ready to WSG away preemptively

Techniques:
* Using javside to down summons - Important
If a Druid is too fast and sneaky to Multi-Shot down his summons on his approach, you'll need to use javside/Fury if he gets too close
Javside is important because (A) Damage Reduction on Stormshield, (B) Stormshield Blocks and (C) Fury hits hard and FHR locks well, which leads to:
* Maintaining namelocks while switching from Fury to Guided Arrow (See techinques in Bowa vs. Bowa), Use this same technique when the Druid retreats for his re-approach
* Standing by walls or in corners - This is a great way to better line up your Multi-Shots, it helps narrow down where the Druid will be comming from
Just don't stand too close to the wall or too far into the corner
* Strafing can sometimes work great vs. Vita Druids, considering he is the only target for strafe to hit

BMing a Druid:
Lacerator is just unfair vs. Druids (See Swordback And Lacerator Switch Glitch)

-------

GMB setup vs. Diamond setup





Diamond pvp vitazon damage while clearing 4 - 6 man chaos

-> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRjLncw3IM4

This post was edited by TSBoyer on Jul 12 2017 04:02pm
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Jul 14 2017 07:19am
Solid and actually gives nuanced insight for scenarios and choices.
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Jul 24 2017 10:52pm
Bump

nr`1 in depth guide
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